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No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists 
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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
ant wrote:
https://sixdayscience.com/2016/07/04/less-than-half-of-all-scientists-are-atheist/


So if as a new atheist you've at one time or another used this idiotic mythical claim, please stop.

And please stop equivocating when someone asks you the direct question - ARE YOU AN ATHEIST?
That fallacious rhetorical tactic is getting really old.


Yes...I AM a proud, card-carrying atheist, and I HAVE used that so-called tactic before.
I also, even AFTER reading your proffered linked article...stand by it. Well, at least a slightly-tweaked, altered version of it.

Here is my current claim: As far as a personal, biblical, caring, loving, prayer-hearing God...then yeah, a good 90% of men and women who are professional scientists in the STEM fields DO NOT believe in him.

Here's what you don't know and what your article conveniently omitted: the sort of "god" that MOST hard-science guys MIGHT give a bit of credence or possibility to is NOT that aforementioned type of deity. Hardly. Rather, they think there might be a sort of impersonal, NON-loving, Universal Intelligence. Call it, maybe, an infinite mind. A Dynamic of Order. This WAS the sort of "god" that guys like Einstein referred to when he said "God does not play dice with the Universe."

Rest assured Einsteins was NOT speaking, nor did he remotely believe in a Yahweh-type god.

Hope this helps.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
LOL.....silence from the godists to my last post, eh?

I wonder why?

Oh...that's right...............

....it's due to the fact that my claim made in it is absolutely true.

What a great deal of theists who trot out their old "its not true that 90% of scientists are atheist" do not know is that the "god" that the odd scientist might remark about is ALWAYS (90% or more of the time) a DEIST and not a THEIST got. The man of science is speaking of something far far more along the lines of a "Universal Intelligence" or "Impersonal Order of Things" than he is a personal, theist, caring, bible god.

I do a LOT of science reading. And also reading of books from both sides of the "god" question. Things like Dawkins' "God Delusion" as well as "The Dawkins Delusion." And the ONLY professional scientist of the 20th or 21st century I have EVER read who believed in a personal, bible sort of god was Francis Collins' "The Language of Life." (lookie there, theists! I just gave you a freebie to use for your fodder next time. LOL).

Admittedly, Dr. Collins is a brilliant scientist, and was indeed a co-founder of the Human Genome Project, where he and Crick unraveled the entire DNA genome over almost a decade.

BUT...it appears that Dr. Collins was RAISED a Christian...then left the faith when he got involved in science--as do so many--and then, when he admittedly was looking for something larger than material science to believe in, in order to fill his depression and a personal emotional void--re-embraced his childhood faith. Yeah..the one he grew out of years before.

This is a very old and predictable dynamic, and it reminds me of criminals who "find god" when they get locked away. Or when a formerly wealthy person loses everything and finds god. LOL.... There IS a reason here: god and the attendant belief system like an afterlife and answered prayers serve as excellent emotional placebos for the downtrodden.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
We should get a new book discussion going where we can debate this stuff again. Our best non-fiction discussions have been about this subject. I am about to create a thread in the non-fiction forum where we can start picking our next book for discussion.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
There is silence from the godists because few are hovering around to respond. You'll find almost solid agreement here.

One "historical" note to add is that the OP you quoted would never say what god he was upholding against the atheists. Nothing he ever said showed that he believed in God, as you've defined the figure, yet that didn't stop him from raging against atheists for attacking any concept that could possibly be deified, such as universal mind. It wasn't true, of course, that atheists in general targeted belief in any non-material, transcendent influence. It's probably true that most don't themselves believe in such a thing, simply for the vague fuzziness of it, but as for others saying they do go for God-the-infinite-mind, no harm, no foul. Hitchens made that distinction very clear in God Is Not Great.

As far as a declaration of atheism, that is a political act that some, such as I, do avoid. That this avoidance might be cowardly in a sense, I concede. But also, not going there with people gets you out of the misunderstanding about just what you're saying you don't believe in. I think that really it's possible to be a-theist only towards a true, strong theism. If objection against deity goes farther than that, maybe it's better to call oneself a staunch materialist.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
33% scientists believe in (a) God.
18% don't believe in (a) God, but do believe in a universal spirit of some sort.
41% don't believe in either, which is a claim of neutrality, not atheism (i.e. God DOES NOT exist).
7% refused to answer the question.

On edit: Oh crap, my apologies to Mr. Ant. I meant to reply to your statements about the above data, but somehow posted my info in your post! I deleted that, but can't reconstruct your info.
:sorry:

No worries, man..

Anyone want to see the data just google Pew Research. It's a poll from 2009. Couldn't find anything more recent but doubt much has changed since.



Last edited by ant on Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
ant wrote:
It's so odd to profess pride for having a simple absence of belief.


I pride myself on not believing in some of the things other people believe in. I don't believe vaccines cause autism, I don't believe GMO's are bad for you, I don't believe the earth is flat, I don't believe Michael Jackson is alive, I don't believe UFO's are abducting people every night, and I don't believe in a personal deity.

Escaping the river of stupid is worth being proud of.


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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
That's fine, but in this particular context it's not a proclamation of anything substantive. Meaning, your absence of belief in a deity does not necessarily mean you are a more rational creature than John Doe, the theist. As a "proud" atheist you'd like to think it typically does, which may be one reason for your prideful bloviating that you are.

John Doe can subscribe to some form of theistic belief and be a law abiding citizen (no relationship between the two implied) while you do not share a similar belief, but are, say, a rapist, a theif, a con man, or generally just a nasty person no one particularly likes, with the possible exception of your mother.

Agreed?



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
ant wrote:
John Doe can subscribe to some form of theistic belief and be a law abiding citizen (no relationship between the two implied) while you do not share a similar belief, but are, say, a rapist, a theif, a con man, or generally just a nasty person no one particularly likes, with the possible exception of your mother.

Agreed?


I'll assume that's rhetorical.

Quote:
Meaning, your absence of belief in a deity does not necessarily mean you are a more rational creature than John Doe, the theist.


Not necessarily, no. Your absence of belief in a flat earth doesn't necessarily mean you're a more rational person than Shaquille O'Neal. You may have just jumped on the spherical-Earth bandwagon by sheer luck.


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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Totally out of context again.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Chris OConnor wrote:
We should get a new book discussion going where we can debate this stuff again. Our best non-fiction discussions have been about this subject. I am about to create a thread in the non-fiction forum where we can start picking our next book for discussion.



Chris,

You were also wrong about children being born in some sort of default atheist setting.

Putting aside the truth or falsity of theism, there are more social science findings that indicate children are born/wired to ascribe agency.
The benefits are obvious - greater chances of survival (e.g. I heard a strange noise in that bush. I'd better run just in case it's a predator).
And of course, there are other social/communal benefits directly related to theism.

If humanity had been wired for atheism it's highly likely we would not be here.

I can effectively skirt the naturalistic fallacy because of the simple fact that we all made it out of the trees.
Or at least some of us did. :P



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Chris OConnor wrote:
We should get a new book discussion going where we can debate this stuff again. Our best non-fiction discussions have been about this subject. I am about to create a thread in the non-fiction forum where we can start picking our next book for discussion.



Great idea...man. I'd be in.

This reminds me of how I think the Bible is simply a work of fiction. Of literature. Mythology. And if it were in a book store and needed to be assigned a section..providing they did not have a "religious" or a "bibles" sections...that it should be always filed in the Fiction or Literature...maybe even Poetry...area!

At my home it is...it sits on the shelf right next to my compendium of Greek Mythology (since after all the bible is simply Hebrew Mythology).



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
It's so odd to profess pride for having a simple absence of belief.


I pride myself on not believing in some of the things other people believe in. I don't believe vaccines cause autism, I don't believe GMO's are bad for you, I don't believe the earth is flat, I don't believe Michael Jackson is alive, I don't believe UFO's are abducting people every night, and I don't believe in a personal deity.

Escaping the river of stupid is worth being proud of.



Great post...and I totally agree! I AM proud of not believing in things I consider silly. Like a personal caring god, for example. Given how rife organized religion is with frauds and idiots..people who embarrass themselves and their faith with their remarks--like your Swaggerts and whoever that idiot was who said Katrina was god's punishment at a sinful city--I think atheism IS asign of intelligence and reason.
Ergo.....something to take pride in.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
ant wrote:
If humanity had been wired for atheism it's highly likely we would not be here.

I can effectively skirt the naturalistic fallacy because of the simple fact that we all made it out of the trees.
Or at least some of us did. :P


Or as Voltaire said, "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Or as Fox Mulder said, "I want to believe."

So, yes, it seems we are born with a belief in something greater than us, and our brains often turn that something into an anthropomorphic something: God.

But Chris is right too. The specific beliefs about God come from religious stories passed down culturally. People are blank slates until culture starts filling in the blanks. It seems likely that the trait to want to believe in something greater than us was beneficial to us in the past. But arguably these viral beliefs as seemingly set in stone in the three major "Abrahamic religions" are no longer a benefit to the human race, but the source of much rancor and conflict. We see hundreds or thousands of sects within Christianity alone or even with one sect, we see many variations. It seems that we can't agree on very much when it comes to this man-made invention: God. What made sense in a world of small, nomadic tribes may not make sense in a world of nation-states.


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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Quote:
Or as Voltaire said, "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."



Here's an interesting post that discusses the entire context of the above quote:


Quote:
This statement was made as part of his larger argument that the existence of God and/or belief in God are beneficial and necessary for civilized society to function. The larger context of the debate in which he was engaged at the time indicates that he did not intend this statement to be an ironic quip essentially claiming that God is fictional, as it is commonly used today.

In fact, the statement was made as part of a piece that he wrote comdemning and refuting an atheistic essay called "The Three Imposters".



https://www.quora.com/What-did-Voltaire ... invent-him



Last edited by ant on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: No, 93% of all scientists are NOT Atheists
Slaverz_Bay wrote:
What a great deal of theists who trot out their old "its not true that 90% of scientists are atheist" do not know is that the "god" that the odd scientist might remark about is ALWAYS (90% or more of the time) a DEIST and not a THEIST got. The man of science is speaking of something far far more along the lines of a "Universal Intelligence" or "Impersonal Order of Things" than he is a personal, theist, caring, bible god.

I am a liberal Christian. I am also very conversant with science. I know a number of professional scientists who are Christian - they go to my church and work at CERN. In general they tend to conceptualize God as a universal spirit, in the language Ant posted from the Pew survey. That version works well for me, as well.

Slaverz_Bay wrote:
I do a LOT of science reading. And also reading of books from both sides of the "god" question. Things like Dawkins' "God Delusion" as well as "The Dawkins Delusion." And the ONLY professional scientist of the 20th or 21st century I have EVER read who believed in a personal, bible sort of god was Francis Collins' "The Language of Life." (lookie there, theists! I just gave you a freebie to use for your fodder next time. LOL).
I am not sure what a "Bible sort of God" would mean. Feet and hands? Talking to people out loud in their language? Riding a chariot through the skies when the thunder is rolling? The first epistle of John declares "God is love". In general it's a good idea to separate imagery from declarative content from which guidelines for behavior follow.

Unfortunately fundamentalists (which, admittedly, included most Christians up to about 1890) tend to think in terms of "belief" as some sort of criterion for being a Christian. Assent to specific propositions is a matter of creeds, which were ways of excluding heretical teachings. Creeds have very little basis in original, New Testament Christianity as the basis of salvation or judgement, despite what 1500 years of church teaching said. Gradually over time Christianity morphed from a religion mainly about practice to a religion mainly about belief. That is not really a very insightful, or Christian, way to conceptualize it.

"Belief" or "faith" in the Biblical usage should be thought of as trust. The word used in Greek corresponds to believing a witness in a trial, but also to trusting a leader or contractual partner.

Slaverz_Bay wrote:
Admittedly, Dr. Collins is a brilliant scientist, and was indeed a co-founder of the Human Genome Project, where he and Crick unraveled the entire DNA genome over almost a decade.

BUT...it appears that Dr. Collins was RAISED a Christian...then left the faith when he got involved in science--as do so many--and then, when he admittedly was looking for something larger than material science to believe in, in order to fill his depression and a personal emotional void--re-embraced his childhood faith. Yeah..the one he grew out of years before.

This is a very old and predictable dynamic, and it reminds me of criminals who "find god" when they get locked away. Or when a formerly wealthy person loses everything and finds god.

You make it sound like there is some problem here. Something larger than materialism seems like an obvious thing to seek - even materialists may seek meaning that doesn't emerge from their materialism. When people realize that the rat race they have been so invested in is really just a sham, it makes sense to ask what values are not just a sham - what really matters.
Slaverz_Bay wrote:
LOL.... There IS a reason here: god and the attendant belief system like an afterlife and answered prayers serve as excellent emotional placebos for the downtrodden.
Nobody hangs around Christianity for long without realizing that it does not function as a way to grant wishes. Similarly, talk about an afterlife functions much more as a way of feeling connected to those who have died than as a way of reassuring us that we will be judged "acceptable." (There are churches, indeed whole denominations, in which this is not true. They tend to alienate normal people, but to gain adherents among the deeply insecure.)

In practice commitment to Christianity is usually a mix of values, beliefs (perception of what is true, e.g. nothing exists without a creator), emotional reinforcement from other people, and internal "emotional confirmation" that the practices are trustworthy. It evolves over time and self-perception is probably the main driver: people want to think of themselves as good people.

In short, like Dawkins you tend to buy into the mistake of literal-minded Christians who think that what they are doing is agreeing to some propositions about the nature of things. I would urge you to talk to some Christians about why their Christianity is meaningful to them - what makes it seem like a good choice. You will usually find that Christians with at least a college education can give lots of factors that have nothing to do with the intellectual issues favored by Dawkins, Hitchens and their ilk.



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