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Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve? 
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Post Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Scripture are clear. Sin and death entered this world through Adam, and he was thus to blame for original sin.

Yet God rewarded Adam with dominion over Eve even though Eve was not responsible for sin and death entering the world. Gen3:16 and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This shows God continuing the policy of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty that is shown in scriptures. 1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God seems to be rewarding Adam for sin while punishing Eve for the events in Eden even though she was innocent of sin as she did not have any evil intent and was deceived by Satan, a force that she could not possibly resist thanks to God giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world after God put Satan in Eden with Eve.

If making man ruler over women that was an error, it would help explain the 5,000 years of war we have had to endure with undeserving men as rulers.

Gnostic Christianity, a Universalist belief system, believes in full equality for all souls. Christianity obviously does not believe in equality if it preaches that men are to perpetually enjoy ruling over women. Not to mention the inequality of gays.

Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve and thus punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL



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Post Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
I'd have to assume that the attitudes toward women reflected in God's actions in the Bible came from the society that pre-existed the making of the scriptures. That's the naturalistic explanation for what gods do and for gods themselves--people created it all. I think I wouldn't therefore place so much importance on the existence of this Christian myth to explain why women have often been treated poorly. There perhaps don't exist similar myths in other religious scriptures to justify the second-class status of women, but we know that religions worldwide have usually not been kind to women. I would guess that women do a bit better in Christian cultures, in fact. I'm afraid I'd have to put down the treatment of women as one of the failures of religion in general, with improvements in women's lives coming not because of religion, but in spite of it.



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Post Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
Sociologically speaking, you are right on the mark.

I suggest that a lot of what you put was not in the Jewish tradition before Christianity came along to turn Eden from man's elevation to his fall.

For that opinion I turn to how women were treated (with great respect and equality) in Egypt which I think is where Judaism pulled a lot of their myths, as well as Sumer but I have no information from them as to how they treated women.

To give my two typing fingers a break, please accept the following links that bolster my view of how Jews treated women and suggest that it was the Christian ideology more than the Jewish one that created the misogyny that we know Christianity embraced.

http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm

The next speaks to the vilification of women and the serpent in a non-existing fall.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’

I believe that Christianity change the elevation of man idea to a fall so as to vilify both women and the serpent of Eden.

There was a plethora of serpent mystery religions in that day and Christianity wanted to vilify them as well as put women in their (place).

Key to why I think as I do is the verse in Gen3:22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

How Christianity sold the notion that gaining a moral sense for mankind was evil I cannot fathom. Perhaps you can. If so, please share your opinion.

Regards
DL



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Post Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
Well, what I have to say about the topic isn't to argue against your point of view, but just to indicate the gaps that exist for me. I'd have to fill in the gaps before I could argue one way or the other. The information about the status of women in Jewish society is interesting and impressive in some regards. It describes a sharp and specific division in gender roles that wouldn't seem to exist in Christianity. The question is whether the "special" roles for women amount to a kind of separate-but-equal status for them. I didn't note that a significant religious or political role was given to them, though. Today, it may be different religiously, but this would be in the progressive brand of Judaism. Politically, women are greatly under-represented in Israel, as they are just about everywhere else. It remains my view that Judaism was (and is) very patriarchal and that the OT contains more passages detailing the subjugation of women than does the NT. I don't automatically equate patriarchy with misogyny, but patriarchy will shift the power balance to the males.

I wasn't able to find a summary of the status of women under the early church that would contrast with the role that Jewish women had. I did find mention of the large numbers of women who flocked to Christianity early on; maybe even a majority of the congregation was women. If the early church was misogynistic, it would be surprising to see the faith become so popular among women. Paul, of course, mentions women in his salutations to the congregations.

Yes, women got a bad rap in Christian countries, and it has taken a long time for them to reach anything near equality. As a partisan of no religion, I have to view the matter relativistically, though. Have women fared worse where Christianity has been dominant, compared to where other world religions have been? My provisional answer is "no."



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Post Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?
The question implies an untrue concept of God as personal entity. The underlying issue for the question is why patriarchal monotheism conquered matrifocal nature worship in the Ancient Middle East. The Old Testament Book of Judges Chapter 18 provides an excellent answer to this question, showing that communities who tried to keep to old 'Golden Age' ideals of peace and justice got obliterated by soldiers with swords. The symbolic meaning of the rule of Adam over Eve is that Israel’s national security required a regimented hierarchical male dominated religion.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Scripture are clear. Sin and death entered this world through Adam, and he was thus to blame for original sin.
Is it really that clear? Genesis 3:6 says “When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.” The fall from grace into corruption is therefore mythologised as due to the woman tempting man. Paul says in Romans 5:12 “sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin” but the ideology was that Adam’s fall was prompted by Eve accepting the advice of the snake.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Yet God rewarded Adam with dominion over Eve even though Eve was not responsible for sin and death entering the world. Gen3:16 and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
That is a wrong reading. You seem to be taking Paul’s summary at Romans as a way to ignore the very broad Judeo-Christian ideology that justifies female subordination by reference to the claimed action of Eve in offering Adam the forbidden fruit.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
This shows God continuing the policy of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty that is shown in scriptures.
Punishment of the innocent is a consequence of the fall from grace. It is not mean to be just, but rather a consequence of the alienation of humanity from nature and God.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
This Biblical vision of the pre-existent Christ as eternal Logos is presented in the Bible as showing the way to eventually end the punishment of the innocent through the rule of love. I am discussing these themes at the ex-christian discussion forum with Tat Tvam Asi, examining the possibility of a scientific astronomical basis for these myths.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
God seems to be rewarding Adam for sin while punishing Eve for the events in Eden even though she was innocent of sin as she did not have any evil intent and was deceived by Satan, a force that she could not possibly resist thanks to God giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world after God put Satan in Eden with Eve.
Where do you get that God rewards Adam? He doesn’t. The expulsion from Paradise replaces a life of leisure and abundance with a life of toil and scarcity. That is not a reward. The patriarchal religion is a result of the fall, as the only way to ensure social unity and security in a world of increasing conflict.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
If making man ruler over women that was an error, it would help explain the 5,000 years of war we have had to endure with undeserving men as rulers.
The logic behind this suggestion does not make sense. God setting men above women is a myth/paradigm which was successful in Israel and elsewhere because the alternative myth/paradigm of gender equality was unworkable. The communities who tried to hold to gender equality got destroyed by rapacious armies. The Bible contains the ideas of the victors. The male superiority theory only survived because it was a more adaptive ideology in evolutionary terms, suited to the social environment of war. The authors of this theory attributed it to God to give it extra weight, but it makes no sense to accept that false metaphysics of God as a personal intentional entity. God is better explained as a psychological projection of human desires.

Ideas about God evolve memetically by cumulative adaptation to selective pressures. A prevailing mythological paradigm can survive only as long as it functions better than alternatives. Myths do not come from on high from transcendental divine revelation, even though part of their success is the claim that they do come from God. When enough people stop believing the myth it collapses. That process is still underway with the myth of Adam and Eve.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Gnostic Christianity, a Universalist belief system, believes in full equality for all souls. Christianity obviously does not believe in equality if it preaches that men are to perpetually enjoy ruling over women. Not to mention the inequality of gays.
The whole Christian dogma of patriarchy is a myth that reflects the social needs of the Iron Age. As we now transition into a new age, whether you want to call it the information age, the rising bronze age or the Age of Aquarius, Christianity will only survive by reforming to accept gender equality. But that is far from simple, given the intense connection between patriarchy and military ideas of national security from the days of Christian and Jewish origins.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve and thus punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
Regards DL

My reading of that question begins with the scientific hypothesis that the slow process of natural climate change provides the durable stable context for genetic evolution of life on earth. This climate process is driven by orbital patterns. The very interesting thing in support of this hypothesis is the observation that a natural repeating orbital period equates to the annual season of planetary fall, seen in purely scientific objective empirical measurement. This orbital cycle correlates exactly with the 6000 year long period that Christian theology interprets as the fall from grace. So the memetics of human cultural evolution is nested inside the genetics which is nested inside the astronomy. God, or Nature, sits outside this whole millennial change process as the rules of natural order in the cosmos.

Blaming God for the fall is equivalent to blaming God for the cold dark harsh barren weather that recurs every winter in temperate latitudes. The fall season is part of nature like night follows day, both at the annual level that we are familiar with and also at the longer framework of precession as seen in glacial data. The challenge of surviving winter is enabled by knowledge that spring and summer are coming back.


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Last edited by Robert Tulip on Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.



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