• In total there are 8 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 8 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a short story discussion

A dedicated forum for discussing and celebrating your favorite short stories and short story authors.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

Fortunately he has been held in check by the courts and his own experienced and wiser advisers. I just learned that he fired James Comey, so he's still capable of wielding chaos. As far as governing skills are concerned, where are they?
Last edited by DWill on Tue May 09, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

DWill wrote:wielding chaos.
A quick search revealed a number of headlines where the Trump Administration, or the agencies affected by it, is likened to a maelstrom, suggesting an incomprehensible and fissiparous chaos. Whether a giant oceanic whirlpool is similarly chaotic is an interesting question. There is certainly an element of unpredictability in a maelstrom, but then again the remorseless energy of time and tide obeys the order of a higher law than we can comprehend. As per the epigraph,
Joseph Glanville wrote: The ways of God in Nature, as in Providence, are not as our ways; nor are the models that we frame any way commensurate to the vastness, profundity, and unsearchableness of His works, which have a depth in them greater than the well of Democritus. Joseph Glanville
A little birdy tells me that ‘According to legend, the well of Democritus was bottomless. It should also be noted that Democritus, a contemporary of Socrates and Plato, is known for laying the foundation for the modern atomic theory, declaring that matter cannot be destroyed but merely changes from one form to another.’ This means that the meaning of the descent into the maelstrom is to illustrate that the ways of nature are infinitely complex, beyond the potential of human understanding ever to explain. It seems mildly ironic that Democritus held that matter is made of atoms, which are finite, and not infinitely small, rather than opening the speculative idea that atoms themselves are fractal multiverses.
The relevance of the infinite depth of Democritus’ well to Mr. Trump is in how Trump is supposedly unleashing the animal spirits of exuberant confidence, viewing the American economy as a beast beyond rational explanation, that will respond to inspired leadership but not to calculated logic. Admittedly, that is a pretty crazy idea, but then human beings are not exactly sane.
If the current period in American politics is likened to a descent into a watery maelstrom, the risks are whether the nation will achieve the calm detachment to grab on to a passing piece of jetsam that will carry it out of the crushing vortex of doom, away from the risk of conversion to mincemeat on the hard jagged rocks of the ocean floor, or if a failure of vision will produce escalating conflict, division and ruin. Against such negative talk, there is still the possibility that Trump is a visionary, presenting an opportunity to make America great again.
DWill wrote: As far as governing skills are concerned, where are they?
Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric often has the nature of an ambit claim, aiming to shift the centre of gravity of political debate so that actual results are closer to the unrealistic dreams of his base. The question of what constitutes good governance is immensely complex, playing into assumptions about security, the economy and the role of the state. In that maelstrom, it is far from clear that a Clinton Presidency would have displayed superior government skills.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

Well, the most succinct comment on Trump in my view has come from none other than George W. Bush. Descending the grandstand from which Trump had given his inaugural address, Bush was heard to mutter, "Man, that was some weird shit," and since that rainy (or was it?) day, there has been a steady excrescence of the same. I mean, Robert, anyone can always say that by some un-understood, paradoxical, or dialectical process, we may end up at a good place after a virtual shit-storm has finished raging. It's also possible to believe that creative extended metaphors have a relation to reality. But the best we can do here on earth is to reason our way to solutions and deal with the unintended consequences as we go along. We can't let mystical Jedi-like theories take the place of governance as we've always practised it. Visionaries always must advance a practical, even if idealistic, agenda. "I have a dream" was once such visionary yet practical program.

I believe you are mistaking the chaotic thinking of Donald Trump for disguised profundity. An interesting line of inquiry is how this idea of disruption has come to have such allure. To see so-called conservatives express belief in it is pretty surprising.

Oh, "fissiparous, " I have to give you props for that. It's /fɪˈsɪp(ə)rəs, according to Merriam-Webster. Only coined in the 19th C. Language evolves in such an amazing way.
Last edited by DWill on Thu May 11, 2017 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DB Roy
Beyond Awesome
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:37 am
9
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 602 times

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

I would like to discuss Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket" at some point--another seafaring tale but certainly one of the most bizarre ever written. Would anyone care to discuss it?
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

DWill wrote:Bush was heard to mutter, "Man, that was some weird shit," and since that rainy (or was it?) day, there has been a steady excrescence of the same.
Hardly surprising from dub, given the orange drumbeat about ‘low energy Jeb’.
DWill wrote:I mean, Robert, anyone can always say that by some un-understood, paradoxical, or dialectical process, we may end up at a good place after a virtual shit-storm has finished raging.
I think of it more like the frog in a pot. The frog feels perfectly secure and warm, but fails to see that these feelings seal its doom, just as the narrator’s brother was damned by clutching ever more tightly to his boat.

There are massive cultural divisions swirling around the maelstrom of American politics, and deconstructing these polarities opens deep emotions about security and progress. The steady warming of the pot, seen as a metaphor for the ability of government to deliver progress and security through increasing tax, creates a strong sentimental attachment to the idea that government can make us safe and prosperous by expanding the intrusion of the state into civil society.

The big ideas behind the Trump movement challenge that myth of ‘gubmint oughta fix it’, albeit at high risk of war and collapse.

I persist in seeing Trump as a type of John Galt figure, seeing the economy as a free maelstrom rather than a controlled plan, like a ranga calling for the law of the jungle as a source of competitive strength.

That Rand typology is only partly true, but the trend question it raises is whether the trajectory of taxation is up or down. Economics says better results come from lower taxes, since churning money through the state only produces friction and waste, destroying incentive and freedom.

Unfortunately I fear that Trump’s rhetoric about small government is just lies and fantasy.

The importance of being able to look at the maelstrom in a detached way seems to me Poe’s great parable in his story.
DWill wrote: It's also possible to believe that creative extended metaphors have a relation to reality. But the best we can do here on earth is to reason our way to solutions and deal with the unintended consequences as we go along. We can't let mystical Jedi-like theories take the place of governance as we've always practised it. Visionaries always must advance a practical, even if idealistic, agenda. "I have a dream" was once such visionary yet practical program.
Allegories and parables are always what you call 'creative extended metaphors'. In this story, the maelstrom, the descent and the escape each serves a separate metaphorical function. It is always useful to consider our predicament against such metaphors, in the hope they may shed light on our options. That is the intent behind the use of parabolic methods such as in the Bible.

Your comment about reason and unintended consequences is well illustrated by the descent into the maelstrom. Your strategy is exactly what the brother does, imagining that clinging to his boat is his best option for survival, in a context of mad blind terror. In fact, his failure to see that letting go would be the only way to save him is a bitter irony about our reasoning prowess, and inability to change course once path dependency sets in.

This Buddha-like detachment has the cryptic koan quality of Yoda. Poe is calling us to let go of our effort to control reality, saying control is the wide and easy path of damnation, when to be saved we need to find the narrow hard way where many are called but few are chosen.
DWill wrote: I believe you are mistaking the chaotic thinking of Donald Trump for disguised profundity. An interesting line of inquiry is how this idea of disruption has come to have such allure. To see so-called conservatives express belief in it is pretty surprising.
Trump’s big message is that the role of the state is rule of law. That is very simple, but also very chaotic, complex, profound, risky and difficult.

The creeping intrusion of government beyond rule of law can only be reversed by disruption, in a way that brings a Schumpeterian creativity, not altogether unlike a descent into a maelstrom, or a tectonic upheaval reversing decades of slowly increasing tension between continental plates.
DWill wrote: Oh, "fissiparous, " I have to give you props for that. It's /fɪˈsɪp(ə)rəs, according to Merriam-Webster. Only coined in the 19th C. Language evolves in such an amazing way.
Give you props for give you props, which I had not seen before. Fissiparity is often used to describe the Indian subcontinent.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

DB Roy wrote:I would like to discuss Poe's "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket" at some point--another seafaring tale but certainly one of the most bizarre ever written. Would anyone care to discuss it?
Sure, why not have a short streak of Poe stories.

Edit: Did not realize that "Pym" is novel-length. But still would be interested in reading and discussing it.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: A Descent into the Maelstrom by Edgar Allan Poe - a discussion

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:
DWill wrote:Bush was heard to mutter, "Man, that was some weird shit," and since that rainy (or was it?) day, there has been a steady excrescence of the same.
Hardly surprising from dub, given the orange drumbeat about ‘low energy Jeb’. [/quote
Oh, so you think the "American carnage" speech was an example of high oratory?
DWill wrote:I mean, Robert, anyone can always say that by some un-understood, paradoxical, or dialectical process, we may end up at a good place after a virtual shit-storm has finished raging.
I think of it more like the frog in a pot. The frog feels perfectly secure and warm, but fails to see that these feelings seal its doom, just as the narrator’s brother was damned by clutching ever more tightly to his boat.
I refer above to your idea that Trump's weird incoherence will somehow deliver us to a better place, that he has a method to his madness. There is no method beyond the narcissist's priority of self. Narcissism, by the way, is a quality Trump has proudly embraced in his "writings." Are we frogs in a pot with regard to Trump steadily eroding norms and institutions? I don't think so, because we can clearly see it happening. We might not care enough to stop it, though. My bet is nevertheless on impeachment down the road, perhaps in 2018 after the midterm elections.
There are are massive cultural divisions swirling around the maelstrom of American politics, and deconstructing these polarities opens deep emotions about security and progress. The steady warming of the pot, seen as a metaphor for the ability of government to deliver progress and security through increasing tax, creates a strong sentimental attachment to the idea that government can make us safe and prosperous by expanding the intrusion of the state into civil society.
If you want this war against government fought, you need a suitable warrior. You don't have one in Donald Trump. You've always projected onto him whatever qualities you think the moment calls for, creating someone with an ideological firmness that DJT simply does not have and has never demonstrated. Would this person of your imagining have touted Australia's government-backed healthcare system, for example? That is merely one example of Trump's complete nonaquaintance with consistent thought. The man can't talk for three minutes without blithely committing non-sequiturs. He's totally unperturbed by that, as well.
The big ideas behind the Trump movement challenge that myth of ‘gubmint oughta fix it’, albeit at high risk of war and collapse.

I persist in seeing Trump as a type of John Galt figure, seeing the economy as a free maelstrom rather than a controlled plan, like a ranga calling for the law of the jungle as a source of competitive strength.
Despite the Ronald Reagan imitation, Trump is no Reagan. Reagan switched parties once and was done. Trump switched parties six times. Nonsense about Trump as John Galt. Would Rand's hero have availed himself of government bankruptcy regs so many times to save his personal fortune while screwing many others?
That Rand typology is only partly true, but the trend question it raises is whether the trajectory of taxation is up or down. Economics says better results come from lower taxes, since churning money through the state only produces friction and waste, destroying incentive and freedom.
Look at Trump's proposed tax reform plan. It provides tax favors for the already wealthy. I would add that libertarians such as you have never had an answer for paying for the shared amenities, protections, and services that are central to modern civilized states.
Unfortunately I fear that Trump’s rhetoric about small government is just lies and fantasy.
So, it's rather that you persist in wanting to see Trump as John Galt, even though you concede that he's a phony Galt. It's not only that, though. Trump doesn't even have significant rhetoric about small government. In fact, with his proclamation "Only I can fix it!" he's right up there with Louis XIV's famous cry. See the conservative National Review's take on Trump's small-governmentalism. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... atism-dead
Your comment about reason and unintended consequences is well illustrated by the descent into the maelstrom. Your strategy is exactly what the brother does, imagining that clinging to his boat is his best option for survival, in a context of mad blind terror. In fact, his failure to see that letting go would be the only way to save him is a bitter irony about our reasoning prowess, and inability to change course once path dependency sets in.

This Buddha-like detachment has the cryptic koan quality of Yoda. Poe is calling us to let go of our effort to control reality, saying control is the wide and easy path of damnation, when to be saved we need to find the narrow hard way where many are called but few are chosen.
To the contrary, the brother is simply too terrified to think, whereas the narrator has possession of his reason and uses it. The narrator conceives a technical solution to a problem, which is much different from the act of "letting go," as I see it.
Trump’s big message is that the role of the state is rule of law. That is very simple, but also very chaotic, complex, profound, risky and difficult.
Rule of law concerns are exactly what are animating some of the resistance to Trump, with regard to his conflicts of interest, his desire to bypass Congress, and most recently with his firing of the FBI director in order to try to scuttle an investigation that he must find threatening to himself. Looking at Trump's campaign themes, rule of law seems implicated only in his immigration policies.
Post Reply

Return to “Short Story Discussions”