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Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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It's funny that the leprechauns in the video repeatedly refer to the Bible as proof of Jesus' resurrection. By that circular logic, the existence of thetans is also true because it says so in L. Ron Hubbard's book.

And so the leprechauns saying, "I just proved there is no such thing as barium by throwing out all samples of barium" is a terrible analogy because we can independently verify the existence of barium. It can be produced in a laboratory and identified based on its chemical composition. Whereas the divinity of the Bible will always be a faith-based proposition.
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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Landroid,

Yes, that specific project died due to conflict among the participants. The publishing agreement allowed each author to retain copyright to their material. It also allowed individuals to withdraw from participation without penalty. In retrospect I made some errors in how the agreement was structured but the accommodations were based on negotiations leading to the agreement. The idea was that each section would be a discussion between that atheist contributors and the apologist contributors so it was not possible to edit the material while maintaining continuity.

I have moved on though I would still like to pursue that project at some point. My premise was, and continues to be, that there is 'an' industry involving atheism and apologetics and that it is in the interests of both sides in this industry to preserve the conflict and, in fact, to churn it.

This was demonstrated in the recent Netflix movie, The Most Hated Woman in America http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4842646/. In one part of the movie, Madalyn Murray O'Hare and Bob Harrington, the so called Pastor of Bourbon Street, team up and travel around the country raking in money staging verbal slug fests. I don't mean to suggest that all apologists are that venal, but it does seem that the same books get published again and again by both sides in the debate without any progress. I have likened it to playing a baseball game with the opposing teams on different fields.
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stahrwe

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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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geo wrote:It's funny that the leprechauns in the video repeatedly refer to the Bible as proof of Jesus' resurrection. By that circular logic, the existence of thetans is also true because it says so in L. Ron Hubbard's book.
That might be true if all four Gospels, as well as all of the epistles, had been written by the same person, and not subjected to millennia of scrutiny. That Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, etc... had not had their lives examined and dissected and their teachings discussed for millennia.

The idea that the Bible may be dismissed because it is espoused by the church is like saying that American history books must be dismissed because they mention American and teach about its history.
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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geo wrote:And so the leprechauns saying, "I just proved there is no such thing as barium by throwing out all samples of barium" is a terrible analogy because we can independently verify the existence of barium. It can be produced in a laboratory and identified based on its chemical composition. Whereas the divinity of the Bible will always be a faith-based proposition.
Did you mean, "Also," instead of, "And so?"

Wasn't Donall making the point point that his barium analogy was bad?

Your statement, "Whereas the divinity of the Bible will always be a faith-based proposition," I am (no joke intended there as I did not capitalize the 'a' in am) is a bit confusing. Did you mean 'divinity' as a reference to God? Most Christians treat the Bible with respect, but I am (there it is again) not aware of any who treat the Bible as divine. That being said, your conclusion about Christianity being a faith-based proposition is correct, at least while one is living. BUT, isn't atheism also a faith-based proposition as you cannot prove that there is no God?
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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stahrwe wrote:Wasn't Donall making the point point that his barium analogy was bad?

Your statement, "Whereas the divinity of the Bible will always be a faith-based proposition," I am (no joke intended there as I did not capitalize the 'a' in am) is a bit confusing. Did you mean 'divinity' as a reference to God? Most Christians treat the Bible with respect, but I am (there it is again) not aware of any who treat the Bible as divine. That being said, your conclusion about Christianity being a faith-based proposition is correct, at least while one is living. BUT, isn't atheism also a faith-based proposition as you cannot prove that there is no God?
The barium analogy is presented as a mockery of Patrick's rejection of the Bible as evidence for the resurrection. The analogy doesn't work for reasons already stated. Belief in barium is based on evidence, not faith.

The Bible is presupposed to have divine origins, does it not? That's why it's circular logic. God is proclaimed to exist because it says so in this book. The fact that some people have long accepted the Bible's divine origins as true is not evidence at all. Some people still believe the earth is flat.

There are hard atheists who positively assert that there is no God, but that's a philosophical argument. As you say, you cannot prove that something doesn’t exist. Speaking for myself, I don't believe in God because I see no evidence that he exists. Show me some actual evidence and I will reconsider. Sorry, an old book doesn’t cut it.
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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Many Christians, believe the Bible to be inspired by God and inerrant in the original manuscripts - actual writings. I am not aware that any of those still exist. Some atheist use that as a strike against Christianity but it was common practice among the Jews, and may still be today that, Scripture pages were destroyed when they became soiled. Even today Jews use a yad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad to point to the Torah instead of touching it.

But, I suppose that even if we had the original manuscripts we would have people challenging their authenticity.
One other point, all of the early Christians came to faith without the Bible, and many do so today in countries where they are illiterate, where they have no written language, where Bibles are not permitted to be distributed - why is it that countries ban the Bible?
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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I recommend Stacy Trasancos' book Particles of Faith. amazon.com/Particles-Faith-Catholic-Nav ... s+of+faith
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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geo wrote:The Bible is presupposed to have divine origins, does it not? That's why it's circular logic. God is proclaimed to exist because it says so in this book. The fact that some people have long accepted the Bible's divine origins as true is not evidence at all. Some people still believe the earth is flat.

There are hard atheists who positively assert that there is no God, but that's a philosophical argument. As you say, you cannot prove that something doesn’t exist. Speaking for myself, I don't believe in God because I see no evidence that he exists. Show me some actual evidence and I will reconsider. Sorry, an old book doesn’t cut it.
At least Christians have a book that provides evidence (yes, I said it) that God exists. All atheists have is a position.

Your argument is that God you reject the Bible because in it God asserts that He exists. I am struggling to understand how you justify rejecting the Bible on that basis. Is, "I think, therefore I am," also circular reasoning? Yet it is the basis for demonstrating that one exists.
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Re: Donall and Conall meet Richard Dawkins

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stahrwe wrote:Many Christians, believe the Bible to be inspired by God and inerrant in the original manuscripts - actual writings. I am not aware that any of those still exist. Some atheist use that as a strike against Christianity but it was common practice among the Jews, and may still be today that, Scripture pages were destroyed when they became soiled. Even today Jews use a yad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad to point to the Torah instead of touching it.

But, I suppose that even if we had the original manuscripts we would have people challenging their authenticity.
One other point, all of the early Christians came to faith without the Bible, and many do so today in countries where they are illiterate, where they have no written language, where Bibles are not permitted to be distributed - why is it that countries ban the Bible?
Good sense.

Please see --

yahweh-obey-like-a-slave-allah-submit-l ... 28467.html

Regards
DL
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