LanDroid wrote: But in reverse bizarro world where you see the cat in a coal bin like a white dove in snow, you'll increase the exposure to make it appear lighter than middle grey. The photo will become whiter, which you will actually perceive as darker. You'll take another picture increasing the exposure more, which will make it even whiter, again appearing darker in bizarro world. You'll rarely get a photo exposure you like in reverse bizarro world.

Hmmmmmm...... Maybe.....

In photography, white people photograph well against stark white backgrounds because white people aren't really white so they'll stand out nicely against the white without too much contrast. Black people, however, should be photographed against a stark black background. It seems counter-intuitive but since black people aren't really black, they stand out against the black background without too much contrast whereas against a stark white background it is hard to see their features.

So a white person shows up at a bizarro photographer's studio to get his picture taken. The photographer sees him as a black person so he shoots him against a black background. To you, though, you see a white person against a stark white background. A black person goes to him and he sees a white person and so shoots him against a white background but you'll see a black person against a black background so it works out.

The point is, of course, qualia are always personal and can never be shared or adequately described. We cannot even be certain that we experience quales the same way. They are so personal that it may well be that no two people experience them the same way. But, even more importantly, why do we feel them at all? I bang my shin, I feel pain. But why? Why not something else? Why anything at all?

Interbane wrote:This is one of my favorite articles in the SEP. It deals with the subject you're talking about. Read it all and let me know your thoughts.

If you don't have time, just read section 2. The Basic Idea. It deals with the Mary's Room thought experiment.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia-knowledge/

I get where they are coming from. Suppose a person was kept in a colorless room all their life but were given data about the color blue--reams of data which they read and understand completely to a very technical degree. The you turn on a blue spotlight and cast it on the wall and ask them what color that is. What answer will this person give? "Oh, that's the color blue I've been reading about because it matches the data." No. They would have no idea what color that is. The data would not help him predict it. He must experience it.

Oddly, if you study consciousness, measure and classify every bit of it, your study is still incomplete because consciousness itself is excluded just as the color blue is excluded from the study of blue. Your own consciousness gets int the way of the study so you would need to have an outside observer observing your consciousness. it can't be another person or you just end up in the same predicament as before. Some say God but, as commonly understood, God won't work. So consciousness IS already the outside observer--outside the universe. So where does it reside?

The way I understand it is that propositional knowledge - knowledge that can be conveyed - is like a programming language. It's versatile, able to reference anything and everything. But the experiential part of our brain operates from a programming language as well. But, it's a different language. Two different types of information. The operating system of our mind is such that these languages can't cross over. The best we can do is translate, rather than transfer.

Interbane wrote:The way I understand it is that propositional knowledge - knowledge that can be conveyed - is like a programming language. It's versatile, able to reference anything and everything. But the experiential part of our brain operates from a programming language as well. But, it's a different language. Two different types of information. The operating system of our mind is such that these languages can't cross over. The best we can do is translate, rather than transfer.

I read the SEP article and would have to spend more time studying it before I could respond on some of these technical issues. But it seems to me that Mary would have to be taught that the word "red" describes the red square she is seeing for the first time. But there's a whole realm of experience that she's missing. Many of us who have known the color red since we were infants and don't have to think about what color it is. That knowledge is deeply ingrained in our brains along with emotions that we associate with the color.

The word "red" by itself only conveys a small amount of information about the color. Mary will have to memorize the words that associate with each color, but until she gets out in the world and sees things that are actually red, she will have very much a sterile kind of experiences with colors.

Therefore, I would agree with Dennet's description of qualia as "as "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us".

Dennett goes on to say that perhaps "Mary's failure to learn exactly what seeing red feels like is simply a failure of language, or a failure of our ability to describe experiences. An alien race with a different method of communication or description might be perfectly able to teach their version of Mary exactly how seeing the color red would feel. Perhaps it is simply a uniquely human failing to communicate first-person experiences from a third-person perspective."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Color is a good example of qualia, but it seems to me that some of these issues are even more evident with music. My wife can't fathom why I like some of the music I listen to. And likewise I can't stand most of the music on the radio these days (unless it's an oldie station). You simply cannot explain to anyone why Miles Davis sounds good. It just does. And if someone has never listened to jazz before will probably not enjoy it. Until we're familiar with the patterns of jazz and can start to anticipate and recognize those patterns, it will sound all of a jumble and nonsensical.

Also, some people who didn't grow up with music will never feel a close bond with it. Those of us who were exposed to a lot of music growing up have a very emotional connection to it. Since Mary is getting such a late start experiencing color, I don't think she will ever develop much of a relationship with color.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ufkw6

This tutorial will be of invaluable help in seeing how consciousness works in the world. Pay particular attention to the closing monologue which encapsulates the whole thing quite nicely.

DB Roy wrote:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ufkw6

This tutorial will be of invaluable help in seeing how consciousness works in the world. Pay particular attention to the closing monologue which encapsulates the whole thing quite nicely.

Good episode of Twilight Zone. I noticed that the lead was played by Dennis Weaver, who went on to play McCloud.