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Rational Eschatology

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Robert Tulip

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Rational Eschatology

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Rational Eschatology

Eschatology is the branch of Christian theology that studies ideas about time. The Greek word ‘eschaton’ means end, so eschatology is the study of ideas about end times, the apocalypse and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. These ideas are strongly shrouded in mythological tradition and fantasy, especially regarding the traditional concept of the end of the world. The challenge facing modern thought is to explore how these mythological traditions evolved, how they sit against modern scientific knowledge, and what prospect there is for ideas about eschatology to be reformed to hold any contemporary meaning and relevance.

The first step in exploring these big questions is to place eschatology within the scientific framework of the real context of time. Time is often perceived as an insoluble mystery, but at the planetary level of the evolution of life on earth time can be seen to have definite measure, order and structure. Life first appeared on earth about four billion years ago. Modern humans evolved more than one hundred thousand years ago, and modern DNA analysis enables us to map the peopling of the world since humans left Africa about 80,000 years ago.

Planetary time has a regular stable structure, driven by the patterns of earth’s orbit. We all know the patterns of the day, the week, the month and the year, all of which appear in regular natural cycles such as tides and seasons. In addition to these well-known ordinary structures of time, there are larger slower structures, discovered by modern astronomy, which provide the orbital drivers of our long slow natural planetary climate cycles, seen in the patterns of glaciation. Four primary orbital cycles drive the climate. These are
1. Earth’s axial wobble, causing the precession of the equinoxes and solstices and poles around the background stars of the galaxy with period 25771 years;
2. Rotation of earth’s orbital ellipse around the sun, with the closest point, the perihelion, like the base of an egg, taking about 113,000 years to cycle around the background stars in the opposite direction from precession of the equinoxes;
3. Obliquity of the axis, which means that the plane of earth’s orbit changes with respect to the solar equator, so the tilt of the earth varies between 22 and 24 degrees with a regular 41,000 year pattern;
4. Ellipticity of the orbit, also known as eccentricity, meaning that the shape of earth’s orbit varies between circular and oval every 413,000 years, driven mainly by whether our orbital perihelion is aligned or perpendicular to the perihelions of Jupiter, Saturn and Venus, with the other planets also having a smaller effect.

These big slow orbital patterns are not widely known and understood, but science has intensively analysed their combined effect on the terrestrial climate. The result is that when the northern summer solstice at 21 June each year is at perihelion, closest to the sun, the world climate is warmer, and when perihelion is at 21 December each year, the June solstice is at aphelion, the point furthest from the sun, and the climate is cooler. This cycle takes 21,600 years, due to the combination of axial wobble and rotation of the ellipse. When perihelion is in the northern winter, less snow melts in the summer, and glaciers grow. When perihelion is in northern summer, more snow melts, and glaciers retreat. The northern hemisphere pattern drives the climate for the entire planet because most of the land on earth is north of the equator so naturally warms and cools a lot more, while Antarctica is surrounded by sea which tends to be more stable in temperature. This 21,000 year pattern of the perihelion is also modulated by the other slow patterns described above, and creates strong consistent traces in geological records such as ice cores and ocean sediment. The perihelion was last at the June solstice at the dawn of the Holocene era about twelve thousand years ago. The perihelion crossed the December solstice in 1246 AD, moving forward at the rate of one day every 59 years to its present date around 4 January every year. The date of the perihelion is a main marker of the natural cycle of terrestrial climate.

The scale of this slow subtle effect is actually immense. The last glacial maximum 20,000 years ago produced glaciers across North American and Europe that were two miles high, down to the latitude of New York, like a bulldozer from the North Pole leaving glacial moraines as big as Long Island. These ice age glaciers sucked up so much sea water that the ocean surface was 140 meters lower, exposing vast areas of continental shelf that have since been flooded.

How does this scientific context relate to eschatology? That is a complex and difficult question, but it is one that we can approach using rational evidence-based methods. A first clue is from India, with the old myth of cycles of ages. These are known as the Yugas, with a descending series of successively worse ages through gold, silver, bronze and iron followed by a mirror ascending series of successively better iron, bronze, silver and gold ages. While these Yuga cycles are traditionally thought of as lasting billions of years, there is also a tradition that says the whole cycle lasts 24,000 years. India has been through three full orbital climate cycles since the great Mt Toba eruption of 73,000 years ago, which basically killed the whole subcontinent by dumping two metres of ash on it. The mythology of the Yuga cycle of gold and iron ages maps to the real pattern of climate, if we see the golden ages as the times of relative warmth and light and the iron ages as the times of relative cold and dark.

This theory of ages of gold and iron found its way like many Indian myths to the west, appearing in the writings of Daniel in the Bible and of Hesiod in Greece. While we cannot know to what extent these cultural borrowings were deliberate or accidental, or to what extent the origin of these ideas was informed by accurate knowledge, this broad framework of ages of light and dark provides a useful starting point to explore how religion relates to the orderly rational understanding of time provided by astronomy.

Just considering this temporal framework from our modern rational perspective, we can consider the climate cycles as analogous to the seasons of the year, marked by the date of the perihelion. When the perihelion was in the northern summer 12,000 years ago, we had a planetary summer. As the perihelion moved past the September equinox 6000 years ago, we entered planetary fall. When the perihelion passed the December solstice in 1246 AD we entered planetary winter, which will last (ignoring anthropogenic factors) for another 5000 years through a steady gradual ascent to a planetary spring when perihelion crosses the March equinox, followed by the next planetary summer in about ten thousand years time. This regular cycle has provided the context for evolution of all life on earth, recurring in that stable pattern about 200,000 times over the four billion years that our DNA has lived on our planet.

Theologically-minded readers may have been able to tell where I am going with this. The period that is the natural planetary fall, roughly the last 6000 years, is also the period that Judaism and Christianity conventionally understand as the fall from grace. So we find in this simple large astronomical pattern a direct natural correlation with the supernatural imagination of conventional religious mythology, with its theories of states of grace and corruption, fall and redemption. The actual material order of our planet provides the framework within which mythology somehow intuited its powerful organising concepts to understand time. Using this large model of time, we can explore how the long periods of five to six thousand years in length, characterised as cosmic seasons, somehow imbue the events that occur within them, just as morning, afternoon, evening and night have a different character through the structure of the day, and spring, summer, autumn and winter each have their own nature. Looking at such long periods as the orbital climate cycles, it is plausible to imagine that the character of one ‘season’ has considerable inertia, continuing well into the next period. So the situation now, with the perihelion in January, is that we are in a time we can call cosmic winter. However, it seems that the cultural norms from the previous season, the cosmic fall, remain powerful. In some ways we have not yet achieved the full paradigm shift into a new season, although this shift has begun to emerge with the steady shift from belief to knowledge, from religion to science and from faith to reason as the basis for ethical values and social organisation.

Christianity, for example in the writings of Augustine and Irenaeus, conventionally imagines time as lasting 7000 years from creation to redemption. Mapping the idea in 2 Peter and Psalm 90:4 that a thousand years is as a day for God on to the Genesis myth of the seven days of creation, the Church Fathers developed the idea of 6000 years of work from 4000 BC to 2000 AD, followed by a millennium of rest and restoration, with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ imagined as inaugurating the millennium in about 2000 AD, to provide a total framework of 7000 years equivalent to the seven day pattern of the week.

As a way to rebase faith in science, the overall model of time provided by the orbital drivers of climate change presents a potentially fruitful method to reform Christianity on the basis of rational understanding of evidence. My own view is that our historical understanding of the scale of trauma in the ancient world is weak, and that the impact of the rise of metal technology over the course of the Holocene was more highly disruptive than is generally imagined. Older peaceful cultural traditions of mystical wisdom were conveyed purely by mouth to ear, and were vulnerable to destruction at the edge of the sword. So the records we have, especially in the Bible, should be read as containing fugitive traces of an old high wisdom, covered by the rubble of simplistic and ignorant politics over thousands of years. Excavating these fugitive traces is difficult but possible, and I here give several main examples.

The Book of Revelation, usually now dismissed as a weird dream, contains abundant evidence of being informed by the high Babylonian knowledge of astronomy. For a thousand years before Christ the priests of Babylon could accurately predict eclipses, and so must have had wider knowledge of astronomy than has survived. A key example appears in Revelation 13, with the story that the dragon would give his power, seat and authority to the leopard-bear-lion. This seemingly fantastic story maps precisely to the precession of the North Celestial Pole, conventionally the divine seat of power and authority, from its former position in the constellation of Draco the Dragon until 3000 BC to its current position in the bear, adjacent to the lion and leopard. This slow movement of the pole, one degree of arc per human lifetime, was measurable by a society able to accurately record all stellar and planetary movements on clay tablets for a thousand years and more. The suggestion of Neugebauer and others that the Babylonians had no interest in the position of the celestial pole or capacity to measure its slow movement is implausible. Similarly, the Holy City of Revelation 21 contains abundant precessional imagery, including the twelve jewels and the 12,000 unit diameter.

In the Gospels, the idea of the incarnation of Jesus Christ maps directly to how an astronomer-priest in ancient times would have imagined the will of God in heaven, understood as the natural observed order of the cosmos, as being done on earth. In 21 AD, the spring equinox, traditionally the start of the Jewish Year, moved from its traditional position in the constellation of Aries across a definite perpendicular line of stars into the constellation of Pisces. This observable event would have been long predicted by the astronomer priests of Babylon and elsewhere. At that precise time, the conventional theory of the signs and seasons matched the background stars, indicating a perceived cosmic harmony that aligns to the idea of divine incarnation of God on earth. That moment was when the year moved from beginning in the traditional first sign to beginning in the traditional last sign, plausibly giving rise to the myth of Jesus Christ as alpha and omega.

The single miracle that appears most frequently in the Bible is the loaves and fishes, a story which can be interpreted as a parable for how universal abundance can be obtained through understanding of the new axis of the world, as a symbol for how the equinoxes had moved into the signs of the fishes (Pisces) and loaves (Virgo, the virgin holding the ear of wheat).

Considering the meaning of this material for Christianity today, an important place to start is the recognition that there is no evidence that Jesus Christ lived as a real historical person, and abundant evidence and motive for how Jesus was invented by theology. The early church gradually added flesh to the myth. They then found this solar God a convenient basis for political stability, locking down the historical doctrine as unchallengeable dogma for a thousand years and more. Jesus was imagined as what a messiah would have done if he had actually existed, a way to sublimate the massive psychological trauma inflicted upon Israel by Rome, and a basis for long term non violent cultural resistance to the empire. The story had to be made plausible in order to provide a basis for social organisation, but the origins in Gnostic mystery imagination were gradually forgotten, suppressed, ignored and denied as the comfort and appeal of Jesus overwhelmed any surviving true memory.

Despite these failings, which we should remember occurred in what we can consider the depth of the iron age, we can imagine the myth of Christ as an ancient way of invoking the presence of the golden age in the midst of the iron age, envisioning a slow path for recovery and healing. While there are obvious errors in the Bible, such as the claim that Christ would return in the lifetime of the ancients, there is also a clear and coherent strand that is fully compatible with the eschatological timeline believed by Augustine and Irenaeus. This timeline appears primarily in the teaching of Matthew 24 that the Son of Man would come on the clouds of heaven only when the Gospel of the kingdom had been preached to the whole inhabited earth, and also in images such as the man with the water jug (Aquarius) seen on the way to the upper room (heaven). The implication I infer from these images is that a Gnostic mystery school, with Therapeut roots in Alexandria and India and Babylon, had a theory of zodiac ages as the structure of time, and imagined a story of a messiah as the avatar of the successive ages.

While we should not today give credence to the magical folk elements within astrology, we cannot understand the evolution of Christianity without restoring the lost astral framework provided by the observation of the movement of the stars of the zodiac. This movement involves seeing how the spring point, the start of the year, moves every 2000 years like the hour hand of a cosmic clock. Over the 7000 years imagined as the Christian framework of time, there are 3.5 ages, a period which can be seen in the mysterious phrase of the tribulation, times, time and half a time. These ages, assuming the time of Adam was imagined as beginning in 4000 BC, are successively when the spring equinox has occurred with the sun in Taurus, Aries, Pisces and the first half of Aquarius. The authors of the New Testament wrote at a time when the Age of Aries was being replaced by the Age of Pisces. The key point here is to investigate how themes traditionally associated with Pisces were embedded in the ideas of Christianity, and how the Second Coming was conceivably imagined as occurring at the dawn of the Age of Aquarius.

This natural structure of time in terms of zodiac ages does in fact align directly to Christian theology. The theme traditionally associated with Pisces is compassionate mystical belief, while the theme traditionally associated with Aquarius is innovative humanitarian knowledge. Therefore, for ancients seeking to map these themes to the structure of the ages, we may imagine that they recognised the Age of Pisces as a time of great trauma and ignorance, and therefore invented an Avatar who embodied the comforting themes of compassion and mystical belief. For these thinkers imagining the vast sweep of history, and how religion would evolve in an ascending subsequent time, when the spring point had precessed to the constellation of Aquarius around 2000 AD, it is possible that they imagined the myth of incarnation and return against this real framework of the visible cosmos, in terms of the Aquarian theme of innovative humanitarian knowledge as providing the core values of the rule of Christ on earth.

To test this hypothesis, we must look for evidence of the Aquarian themes of innovative humanitarian knowledge as associated with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. These themes appear most vividly in Matthew 25, the Last Judgement. Here once again we see the old idea of six plus one from the Genesis creation story. This time the six days of work are reflected in the six messianic labours, to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome strangers, visit the sick and visit prisoners, while the seventh day, the Sabbath day, the day of rest and the day of peace, is reflected in the unifying commandment of the Last Judgement with its ringing defence of universal rights, that we should always treat the least of the world as though they are Jesus Christ.

Here we find in this old message of the love of Christ for all the world the simple clarity needed for sustainable development goals, reconciling faith and reason in a way that enables Christian religion to become entirely compatible with scientific knowledge.

Robert Tulip
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Re: Rational Eschatology

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Robert Tulip wrote:Eschatology is the branch of Christian theology that studies ideas about time. The Greek word ‘eschaton’ means end, so eschatology is the study of ideas about end times, the apocalypse and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. These ideas are strongly shrouded in mythological tradition and fantasy, especially regarding the traditional concept of the end of the world. The challenge facing modern thought is to explore how these mythological traditions evolved, how they sit against modern scientific knowledge, and what prospect there is for ideas about eschatology to be reformed to hold any contemporary meaning and relevance.
Hi Robert. I've been following your travel adventures in Australia and you mentioned taking the time to write your essay on rational eschatology. Not to let it pass with indifference here a few points I would make in response.

Obviously I don't go along with your astro-theological interpretations but won't rehash all the arguments against that again.
Robert Tulip wrote:So the situation now, with the perihelion in January, is that we are in a time we can call cosmic winter. However, it seems that the cultural norms from the previous season, the cosmic fall, remain powerful. In some ways we have not yet achieved the full paradigm shift into a new season, although this shift has begun to emerge with the steady shift from belief to knowledge, from religion to science and from faith to reason as the basis for ethical values and social organisation.
Robert Tulip wrote:the actual material order of our planet provides the framework within which mythology somehow intuited its powerful organising concepts to understand time.
You seem to suggest here Robert that there is a development in ideas and societies corresponding to these ages intuited by ancient astronomers and mythologised in ancient writings.

It seems like you are saying there is some kind of prophetic fulfillment in this shift from belief to knowledge and religion to science that is predicated on these anciently devised times and astrological ages such as Pisces and Aquarius.
Is that what you are saying?

Is there really such a thing as the age of Aquarius which actually has a real effect?

I won't get into the same old arguments on other points but just to remind you that there are other interpretations, I'm providing one such alternative,with a link.
You mentioned Daniel and the image Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream made of diverse elements of gold and brass etc and you interpret this in keeping with your ideas of ages and their character.

They seem to me to be kingdoms and not so much ages but of course they appear in history so have a temporal reality.

http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/jfb/daniel/2.htm

I expect to follow your further travel adventures in your blog, Robert.
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Re: Rational Eschatology

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Flann 5 wrote:Hi Robert. I've been following your travel adventures in Australia and you mentioned taking the time to write your essay on rational eschatology. Not to let it pass with indifference here a few points I would make in response.
Hello Flann, thanks for your interest and your questions.
Flann 5 wrote: You seem to suggest here Robert that there is a development in ideas and societies corresponding to these ages intuited by ancient astronomers and mythologised in ancient writings.
If you read my comments carefully, you will see that my theme is the real long term patterns observed by modern scientific astronomy as the orbital basis of climate science. There is also an astrological imagination apparent in ancient mythology which correlates exactly with the real scientific pattern, but the relation between this imaginative construction and the climate science is highly complex.
Flann 5 wrote: It seems like you are saying there is some kind of prophetic fulfillment in this shift from belief to knowledge and religion to science that is predicated on these anciently devised times and astrological ages such as Pisces and Aquarius. Is that what you are saying?
It depends what you mean by prophetic fulfilment. I want to exclude any miraculous concepts of divine revelation, while respecting the theory of history that is presented in the New Testament. This theory of history as I read it is that the Age of Pisces from about 0 to 2000 AD was predicted to be a time when the story of Jesus would spread through the whole world as stated at Matthew 24:14 http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-14.htm, while the Second Coming was predicted to begin the millennium of peace and restoration when Christ will rule the world in love for a thousand years from roughly 2000 to 3000 AD.

This broad theory of history aligns to the basic orthodox scheme that until the second coming Christianity will be based on belief, while after the Second Coming the basis of Christianity will become knowledge. The Bible explains that the Second Coming will separate true and false teachings as explained in the parable of the wheat and tares at http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-30.htm and good and evil as explained at http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-45.htm . We see this framework of belief and knowledge explained by Saint Paul in his comment in 1 Cor 13:12 http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/13-12.htm “now we see through a glass, darkly [ie our relation to Christ is one of belief]; but then face to face [ie after the second coming we will relate to Christ through objective scientific knowledge]: now I know in part [so must rely on belief]; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

This creedal scheme of an age of belief followed by an age of knowledge has a simple and direct match to the factual observation, available to the ancients, that the constellations marking the spring equinox at those times have the traditional astrological themes of belief and knowledge. But that does not in any way imply a dynamic physical causation. The reality is more complex.

Zodiac ages are caused by the seasons slowly rotating around the stars like how the hands rotate around a clock face. The numbers on a clock don’t cause the changes in the day, although there is an obvious correlation between the hour hand pointing to the 6 and both sunup and sundown. Similarly, we can’t say that the astrological ages of Pisces and Aquarius have any causal reality in terms of the stars causing events on earth, just as we can’t say my watch numbers make the sun go down. The stars are markers, not drivers.

However, there is a correlation between the spring equinox occurring while the sun is in Pisces and a real long term orbital climate factor, the perihelion crossing the December solstice. The movement of the perihelion actually is an objective dynamic driver of long term climate. Ice core and ocean sediment records show a clear c. 20,000 year cycle caused by the position of the perihelion against the seasons, as seen in the diagram below. When the northern summer happens when earth is at perihelion, closest to the sun, most of the winter snow melts, but when the summer is when earth is furthest from the sun, the winter snow builds up and causes glaciation to grow, speeded up by a range of feedback loops. This role of the perihelion date in driving climate change is as objective as the claim that when the sun goes below the horizon the earth gets dark.

Moving to your question of if and how and why the ancients believed in ages of Pisces and Aquarius, I think that really is a fascinating major question for science and history and theology. The academic consensus is that astrological ages are a modern invention, derived by the spiritual psychologist Carl Jung from nineteenth century ideas of the theosophical movement. I reject that consensus for a number of reasons, because I consider that there is compelling evidence that the Gnostic authors of the Gospels used the theory of zodiac ages as their template for the invention of Christian eschatology. They could see the ‘clock face’ of history, the movement of the equinox from Aries through Pisces, and its future movement into Aquarius in our day. They lived in a time when astrology was culturally pervasive, even though fortune telling was rejected by traditional Jewish monotheism. The reverence for the zodiac is shown by the fact that the breast plate that the Jewish high priest wore into the holy of holies was directly based on the twelve signs of the zodiac, according to Josephus and Philo. But as Christianity evolved into the basis of Christendom, rejection of astrology became an important theme, and astrological ideas were written out of early Christian documents. These ideas could only be retained in concealed form, as we see in the loaves and fishes example, and the story of the man with the water jug. They were retained because they were central, but hidden because they were unacceptable.

The idea that the ancient authors of Christianity transposed the astrological themes associated with Pisces and Aquarius on to their imagination of the cultural evolution of the zeitgeist is one I find intriguing. The ancients could see that in about 2000 AD, the equinox would move from Pisces into Aquarius, just as they could see it move from Aries into Pisces in 21 AD. The interpretations of the sign meanings in astrology are old, with typical explanations here http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/sunsigns.php and here http://cosmicnavigator.com/astro-cards/. The idea of an age of belief followed by an age of knowledge matches to the actual history of the rise of science, with its cultural evolution of the replacement of belief by knowledge as the main driver of social values. My interpretation is that the ancients used this astrological template to design the Christian theory of the structure of time. A further possibility is that they were aware of the larger accurate Indian theory of the Yugas, the ages of light and dark over a 24,000 year cycle which matches directly to the insolation cycle driven by the perihelion cycle around the seasons with only 10% error.
Flann 5 wrote: Is there really such a thing as the age of Aquarius which actually has a real effect?
What is real is a 21,600 year climate cycle which had its low point in 1246 AD. The precession alone has period 25771 years, producing theoretical zodiac ages of duration 2148 years. A real effect of such ages would depend on a natural twelve-fold harmonic division of the precesional wobble. There is no evidence for such a division having real effect, which is not to say it does not exist. However, the close mapping between this imagined cycle and the real perihelion climate cycle provides a plausible basis for the ancients developing such a theory, especially given its precise correlation with the Indian theory of golden and iron ages.

Here is a picture of the real perihelion light cycle over 50,000 years, as a detail of the graph from Wikipedia linked in the opening post of this thread. Like the sine curve of the annual seasons, rising through winter and spring and falling through summer and fall, this graph shows that the natural climate summer was ten thousand years ago, we are now in a climate winter (masked by anthropogenic emissions), and we have begun on a steady ascent to the next climate summer in ten thousand years.
50,000 years insolation seasons.jpg
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Re: Rational Eschatology

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Robert Tulip wrote:It depends what you mean by prophetic fulfilment. I want to exclude any miraculous concepts of divine revelation, while respecting the theory of history that is presented in the New Testament. This theory of history as I read it is that the Age of Pisces from about 0 to 2000 AD was predicted to be a time when the story of Jesus would spread through the whole world as stated at Matthew 24:14 http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-14.htm, while the Second Coming was predicted to begin the millennium of peace and restoration when Christ will rule the world in love for a thousand years from roughly 2000 to 3000 AD.
Hi Robert. I appreciate that you have put a lot of effort into your hypothesis and study of astronomical information. I think though that you reveal your presuppositions when you say "I want to exclude any miraculous concepts of divine revelation."

From our exchanges in the past it seems clear to me that you are heavily influenced by the 19th century German rationalist 'higher critics' of the bible such as Julius Wellhausen as well your belief that science precludes the supernatural.

These theorists were influenced by the age of reason championed by the revolutionary French rationalists of the previous century.
Thus for them it was apriori impossible that a prophet such as Daniel could have correctly made accurate predictions in advance.
Furthermore they were theorising in an age before archaeology had really got going in Israel and the middle east so were working in a factual vacuum and engaging in speculative and subjectively based conjecture.

As I responded previously, their theories are now dead in the water due to archaeological discoveries since their time but they have had a disproportionately strong influence on biblical studies and still do though to a lesser extent.

Here again is Prof Kenneth Kitchen's brief and relevant article.

http://www.theologynetwork.org/the-bibl ... tament.htm

As you rightly say there is an eschatology in the book of Daniel. It has been a target of sceptics from the days of Porphyry in the second century in reaction to the prophetic element.
Later higher critics dated it to the second century b.c. rather than the sixth b.c. which the text itself sets it in historically i.e. the time of the Babylonian empire.

Discoveries from the dead sea scrolls though lend credence to an earlier date than that conjectured by the higher critics.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... px#Article

There are further sound reasons for dating it to the time it is set in and to recognising it's authorship as authentic.
http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/ ... 34.htm?x=x

The implications are profound in terms of prophetic content.

I'm aware of sceptical critiques of biblical prophecy and am just focused on Daniel here. Suffice to say that much of the methodology is the same which is to postdate it and claim it's retrospective but that covers a large number of writings. Too many to deal with in one post.
I think worldview based assumptions can prevent looking at the evidence objectively.
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Hi Flann, many thanks for this focus on the central problem of explaining the prophecies in the Book of Daniel.

Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks until the time of Christ, traditionally understood as the 490 years from Ezra to Christ, fits exactly with what Babylonian seers could readily predict regarding the alpha and omega incarnation point of the alignment of signs and seasons when the equinox crossed the age cusp from Aries to Pisces in 21 AD.

This constellational movement of the spring sun formed the chi rho cross, as shown below by the three lines of the ecliptic, equator and first fish of Pisces. This celestial movement was readily predictable in advance by a civilization advanced enough to understand the three motions of the moon that make eclipses, and to record all heavenly visible movement seen by night from the top of their zigurrats for a thousand years and more.

There is no need to postulate the existence of a supernatural God to account for the prophecy in Daniel. Rather, the astronomy of precession provides an ample coherent objective scientific framework for the popular versions of hidden understanding seen in the heuristic informing the book of Daniel.

As well as the simple prediction of Christ through the movement of the equinox, the Book of Daniel holds an artfully hidden telling of the big Vedic story of precession, the perpetual cycle of light and dark understood in the framework of golden and iron ages as the structure of time. This Vedic model from India matches to the structure of terrestrial time seen by modern geology and astronomy in ice and benthic data.
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Robert Tulip wrote:Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks until the time of Christ, traditionally understood as the 490 years from Ezra to Christ, fits exactly with what Babylonian seers could readily predict regarding the alpha and omega incarnation point of the alignment of signs and seasons when the equinox crossed the age cusp from Aries to Pisces in 21 AD.
Robert Tulip wrote:There is no need to postulate the existence of a supernatural God to account for the prophecy in Daniel. Rather, the astronomy of precession provides an ample coherent objective scientific framework for the popular versions of hidden understanding seen in the heuristic informing the book of Daniel.
Hi Robert. On this prophecy the text states that it's from the date of the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem which was decreed by Artaxerxes.
The great scientist and astronomer Isaac Newton was fascinated by the eschatological books of Daniel and Revelation and wrote commentaries on them.
An astronomer John Pratt wrote an article on how Newton determined the dates from Daniel and by Pratt's reckoning it fits precisely to the day of Christ's crucifixion.

Whether this is so or not, it's not absolutely required I would say, as the text says; "And after threescore and two weeks (lit.sevens) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." Dan 9:25

So it's basically after this period of time that "Messiah shall be cut off."

Of further interest is the prophecy of the destruction of the city and it's sanctuary or temple.

The contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, refers to this historical event,also found prophesied in the gospels by Christ, as a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

Here's the astronomers article on Newton and the prophecy of Daniel.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... aniel.html

He's interested in astronomy and ancient calendars so you might find more things of interest to you on his site,

My main point here is the historically grounded element such as the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem which in fact happened as well as the prophetic aspect which certainly strikes me as being supernatural.

To reiterate a previous point,much of the higher critical theories of the past have sunk on the rock of increasing archaeological evidence.
Whether you date Daniel with the higher critics to second century b.c. or as I would think to centuries earlier makes no difference here since both significantly predate the prophesied events and give a starting point historically for calculation as from "the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jersusalem."
Last edited by Flann 5 on Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Rational Eschatology

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Flann 5 wrote: The great scientist and astronomer Isaac Newton was fascinated by the eschatological books of Daniel and Revelation and wrote commentaries on them.
Flann, thanks very much for mentioning Newton. His Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John are available at Project Gutenberg, and present a remarkable conundrum, that the greatest genius of enlightenment reason was also, in Keynes’ assessment, a total religious kook.

John Maynard Keynes, the main genius of economic orthodoxy of modern times before Friedman’s Thatcherite monetarism, bought most of the trunk of Newton’s secret religious writings at a Sotheby’s auction in 1936, and wrote an essay about it. The Royal Society of London planned an event to celebrate the tercentenary of Isaac Newton's birth in 1942. However World War II caused deferral to July 1946. Lectures were given by Niels Bohr and others. Keynes was invited to lecture but unfortunately died in April 1946, and his paper was read by his brother. Here is the text of the lecture:- http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Ext ... ewton.html

I will come back to discuss Keynes’ essay further.

A further excellent source on Newton and religion is http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/prism.php?id=1 with commentary and links to Newton’s religious papers at http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/p ... id=153#hd2. The texts available via the Newton Project are now among the largest set of religious resources for any individual. Historians reacted vigorously against the fractured Keynesian positivist view of Newton's work, and citing new evidence from his correspondence and other papers, they argued that all of his work was interconnected in some mysterious but coherent whole.
Flann 5 wrote: An astronomer John Pratt wrote an article on how Newton determined the dates from Daniel and by Pratt's reckoning it fits precisely to the day of Christ's crucifixion.
Unfortunately this whole intellectual framework of “divine foreknowledge” is junk. As I said http://www.booktalk.org/post145586.html#p145586 in the current thread on belief, there is also solution 3 (against magic and fraud as 1 and 2) – that the prophecies about Christ arose from naturally explicable scientific information available to ancient observers, but this origin was concealed for political reasons.

To my reading this is a compelling, parsimonious and elegant scientific explanation.

Babylonian astronomers could see for hundreds of years beforehand that the spring equinox point would cross into Pisces in about 21 AD, marking a convenient way to theorise a new age and alpha/omega point of messianic incarnation. This astronomical observation has no need for divine foreknowledge, and provides a highly explanatory basis for Biblical prophecy, and for the cultural evolution of the enfleshing of the Christ Myth.

This observation presents a basis for paradigm shift in Christianity from faith to reason, enabling the comprehensive removal of all the obsolete supernatural magical superstitious dross that has surrounded the theory of God.

Here is a comment I just sent to someone asking if the kingdom of the Second Coming as portrayed in the Bible is heavenly or earthly. It is very clear to me that it was imagined as a kingdom on earth, as a practical future prediction.

The Kingdom of Christ is established following the battle in Rev 19, where the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gather together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. Christ on his white horse with his blazing eyes is at the head of the armies of heaven, to defeat the evil armies of earth and establish heaven on earth, in line with the core hope of the Lord’s Prayer that the will of God be done on earth as in heaven.

The thousand years (traditionally from 2000 to 3000 AD in the Patristic 7000 year framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_Day_Theory are like a Sabbath Day (per 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4) of rest and recovery and peace, in which good is finally understood and able to confine evil after the tribulation of 6000 years of fall from grace into corruption.

Evil is not destroyed during this messianic millennial sabbatical, and Satan is able to regroup for Armageddon in 3000 AD. The victory of Christ at Armageddon enables steady progress for the subsequent future, which could be imagined as ten thousand years of world peace, building heaven on earth.

The proclamation of Christ at Rev 21:3 is that God’s dwelling place is now among the people. This messianic hope of a new heaven and new earth is about the transformation of earth into perfection, fixing the world as per John 3:17 rather than condemning it, based on the focus on the seven messianic labours of the Last Judgement which are purely about remedying the earthly suffering caused by evil.
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Re: Rational Eschatology

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Robert Tulip wrote:A further excellent source on Newton and religion is http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/prism.php?id=1 with commentary and links to Newton’s religious papers at http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/p ... id=153#hd2.
Thanks for the info on Newton,Robert. I had a quick look and will look at what you provided in more detail.
He certainly was unorthodox and leaned towards conspiracy theories of Catholic interference with documents as support for his Unitarian views of God.
Robert Tulip wrote:Unfortunately this whole intellectual framework of “divine foreknowledge” is junk. As I said post145586.html#p145586 in the current thread on belief, there is also solution 3 (against magic and fraud as 1 and 2) – that the prophecies about Christ arose from naturally explicable scientific information available to ancient observers, but this origin was concealed for political reasons.
I think I understand your views on the sun being deified and some Gnostics maybe anthropomorphizing this into a mythical person they called Christ.
Later this was literalised into the gospel accounts and these guys prevailed over the Gnostics who had a more esoteric view of the hidden meanings which was for the elite initiates.
So there is no divine foreknowledge or prophecy that is fulfilled in time historically.

In keeping with the subject then how can these these things be determined?
There's been a long standing difference between theologically liberal and conservative biblical scholars on this subject.
Almost invariably the liberals post date prophecies primarily on the basis that prophecies simply cannot truly exist and must be from later, particularly where they are accurate in historical detail.

I've already given some info on Julius Wellhausen and his fellow higher critics and their theories on dating and authorship.
Their influence on biblical studies cannot be underestimated and reflects the rationalist view on prophecy.

Here's another article on Wellhausen and his ideas titled;" Does anybody still believe the "Documentary Hypothesis?"

http://www.ukapologetics.net/docu.htm
If we take an example of biblical prophecy from Isaiah, there is that of God speaking of the Persian ruler Cyrus conquering Babylon, and also decreeing the return of the Jews from exile, and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.

The dating and authorship are important. Bearing in mind the whole basis for liberal scholars late dating being based on Wellhausen and the 19th century higher critic's theories on this it's worth looking at the arguments against this.
Here first is one quote from Isaiah and comments by Christians on this.
http://www.biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/45-1.htm
Here are the reasons for dating this prophecy to before the event as being consistent with the view accepted by both Christians and Jews for centuries until the time of the higher critics.
http://www.ukapologetics.net/2criticalisaiah.html
So there the debate is on the dating.
What can't be claimed as post dated are the messianic prophecies such as in Isaiah ch 53. The orthodox Jews today tend to maintain that the servant in view is Israel and not the messiah.
So it's a matter of weighing up the arguments on the interpretation of this. Here's an example.
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies ... Isaiah.htm
If this is messianic and we see a similar one from Daniel earlier in this thread then how can this be explained?
Well you can deny the historicity of Christ and his crucifixion by Pilate or consider it and the whole subject of prophecy.
There are many including that of a new covenant in Jeremiah and Christ's own prophecy that the gospel would be preached in the whole world before the end.
This because there's no way to postdate it. Earlier I pointed to Daniel's certainly predated prophecy of the messiah being cut off as Isaiah also says, and the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple. This also found from Christ in the gospels.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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