• In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

#136: Feb. - Mar. 2015 (Non-Fiction)
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17016
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3509 times
Been thanked: 1309 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Please use this thread for discussing Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality. :bananadance:
User avatar
Penelope

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
One more post ought to do it.
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am
16
Location: Cheshire, England
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 679 times
Gender:
Great Britain

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

I do feel as though I want to take issue with his looooong list of pseudoscience and superstition.........2nd Paragraph.

But there again, it is only a list and is Sagan's own perception of bogus.

I think I have seen enough mediums and healers (my Mum used to have them to tea when they were appearing at her Spiritualist church), to realise that some are deliberately misleading, some are well-meaning and convinced of their own gift of clairvoyance or whatever, and some can convey such a sense of peace and stillness that there is no doubt that they can heal psychosomatic disorders, as Sagan seems to agree in this chapter, (my page 218, paragraph beginning 'As a typical example'). The point being that a very large proportion of illness in this day and age is psychosomatic, more than in history because of the pace of living and the different modern circumstances. It is still healing, one person to another. Asthma and eczema, both being nervous complaints with physical manifestation.

I myself have learned dowsing. I use a pendulum. I don't know how it works, I don't think it's magic, but it works on some level.

Anyway, whilst I have appreciated this chapter and it is good to be reminded to be skeptical and wary, it seems a shame to be completely cynical and miss out on a lot of natural healing techniques.

Sagan has warned us that we might be hallucinating, or imagining things, or it might be wishful thinking, but surely the best person to decide is ourselves. If a person is not gaining financially, or seeking kudos, then we can use our own rational thinking to decide rather than lump it all into one huge heap and call it bullshit.

I have enjoyed this chapter though. You see what happens Carl Sagan? You teach people to think for themselves and what happens? They won't do as they're told.... :-D
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

In my opinion, it's not wise to make grand sweeping assumptions about Reality.
It's arrogant, but not very wise for a number of reasons.

This is what disinterests me most about celebrity scientists like Sagan.

I plan to read, "The Eerie Silence" by one of my favorite authors, Paul Davies.
Probably immediately after finishing up this book.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Eerie-Silence ... B005OHT0WS
Last edited by ant on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

Penelope wrote:Anyway, whilst I have appreciated this chapter and it is good to be reminded to be skeptical and wary, it seems a shame to be completely cynical and miss out on a lot of natural healing techniques.
I wouldn't say we disregard the natural healing techniques. As long as we understand them as naturalistic - ie affecting us through placebo, then we are being honest about the potential limits.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

Not only do placebo treatments work because of the impressive powers of our minds, but the body has a natural tendency to heal itself, anyway, which increases the chances that any treatment--or no treatment--will be effective. A doctor once told me something striking. He said that doctors should post a sign in the waiting room reading, "75% of you will get better anyway."
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

What does the phrase "impressive powers of the mind" mean scientifically?
User avatar
Penelope

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
One more post ought to do it.
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am
16
Location: Cheshire, England
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 679 times
Gender:
Great Britain

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

Our minds are much more powerful than we are generally aware. My husband says that when he worked in Research and Development in the Nuclear Power Industry - he used to go to sleep with a problem/puzzle on his mind, and when he woke up in the morning he often had the answer as though his brain had been working it out whilst he was sleeping. I don't mean he would receive flashes of inspiration, I think it would be more like a mathematical equation.

I don't know whether this is what DWill was meaning,.

I know that our minds can be calmed and influenced by music, or by the reassuring presence of another person.

How to express it scientifically is another matter entirely.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

Maybe Interbane would say it stands to reason that we should be able to locate inspiration in the brain and remove it for further analysis.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

ant wrote:What does the phrase "impressive powers of the mind" mean scientifically?
I dunno, didn't mean for it to have scientific heft. I'm even a little hazy on what we might mean by use of that word--scientific. What specific quality do we mean to confer?
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Chapter 13: Obsessed with reality

Unread post

DWill wrote:
ant wrote:What does the phrase "impressive powers of the mind" mean scientifically?
I dunno, didn't mean for it to have scientific heft. I'm even a little hazy on what we might mean by use of that word--scientific. What specific quality do we mean to confer?
75% of people will get better anyway??

And the scientific explanation would be "because that's what mostly happens. The science of medicine assists health, but does not assure it or its well being"
Maybe?

No doubt we have come a long way. But is there a tendency to overrate our understanding?
Post Reply

Return to “Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan with Ann Druyan”