• In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Chapter 1: The most precious thing

#136: Feb. - Mar. 2015 (Non-Fiction)
youkrst

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
One with Books
Posts: 2752
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:30 am
13
Has thanked: 2280 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

the scientific 'progress' in the past few centuries owes its success to churchmen of the incorrectly maligned middled ages.
the discoveries were there to be made, if a christian didn't get there first someone else would have made it sooner or later.

i don't see how a scientific discovery can be claimed by the christians, they do the same with morality, oh you wouldn't have had any morality without God (us), i dont believe it, discoveries would be made with or without christianity, morality would be there with or without christianity.

i think we might well be further along without christianity.
Further, religion - primarily Christianity devotes significant resources to works of charity.


there again, christianity acting as if it somehow owns charity

christianity owns science, morality and charity... anything else vicar?

islam is the final revelation

god gave us jews this land

let's have a party to end all parties.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
12
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

"the discoveries were there to be made, if a christian didn't get there first someone else would have made it sooner or later."

More counterfactuals and irrelevant, "yeah, but ..," nonsense.

But dont let me interrupt.
youkrst

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
One with Books
Posts: 2752
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:30 am
13
Has thanked: 2280 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

come, let us reason together :-D
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

Stahrwe wrote:PC, you claim religion is a speed bump but the scientific 'progress' in the past few centuries owes its success to churchmen of the incorrectly maligned middled ages. Pop culture and scientists in general fawn over Einstein but rarely acknowledge the debt owe to Maxwell. If you consider the impacts on daily life of these two individuals, Maxwell's is orders or magnitude more than Einstein's and yet Maxwell was a string Christian. And what about all the Nobel prize winners who were Christians? How can you justify calling religion a speed bump.
If you don't think religious belief lends itself to the opposition of scientific knowledge, how do you explain you motive against evolution and an old Earth? Do you think this century is the only one with such antagonism towards science due to religious belief? How many Americans believe evolution isn't true, because religion has staked a claim on that conceptual territory? For every Christian scientist following an empirical quest for knowledge, their are ten decrying it. But you'd have us believe this is only a recent trend?
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
User avatar
stahrwe

1I - PLATINUM CONTIBUTOR
pets endangered by possible book avalanche
Posts: 4898
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:26 am
14
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

The secular philosophy enshrined in Aristotle inhibited scientific progress until 1277 AD when Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, condemned the belief "that the First Cause cannot make many worlds, and opened science to discovery. The statement that the discoveries would have been made anyway is not a logically defensible argument. It is a conclusion without valid premises.

I will deal with Darwin in a future comment.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

I didn't mention Aristotle or Darwin, they have no bearing on my point. You yourself reject much of scientific knowledge, and yet you maintain that it's a new thing.

In many areas, religion has been resistant to scientific progress. This doesn't mean past religious scientists weren't inspired by religion to discover the world, or that past religious leaders didn't unintentionally removed roadblocks to scientific progress.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
User avatar
stahrwe

1I - PLATINUM CONTIBUTOR
pets endangered by possible book avalanche
Posts: 4898
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:26 am
14
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

Philosophy can and has affected scientific progress. In the case I referred to, Aristotle was the authority on the nature of the universe. His teaching inhibited progress until the Church intervened. That intervention was NOT based on anything scientific. It was based on the Church's understanding of God. Said intervention opened the way for tremendous progress.

There is a BIG difference between challenging the claims of Science - including demands that alternative explanations be considered, and invoking a fundamental blanket understanding of the universe which derails the concept of exploration.

I suspect the above will create reflexive responses about fundamentalist Christians opposition to evolution. I expect no less but I point out that Sagan says that scientific theories and claims MUST be subjected to the most vigorous challenges and opposition.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
User avatar
stahrwe

1I - PLATINUM CONTIBUTOR
pets endangered by possible book avalanche
Posts: 4898
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:26 am
14
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 315 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

Regarding the question of which group benefits society more - Christians or scientists, it is fine that science develops ways to produce more food but that does no good to starving people if they don't get that food.

What percentage of resources does science devote to putting food and medicine in the hands of those who need it?
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
User avatar
President Camacho

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I Should Be Bronzed
Posts: 1655
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:44 pm
15
Location: Hampton, Ga
Has thanked: 246 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

Aristotle persisted so long because of a dearth of scientific inquiry and selected support BY the Church. The search for knowledge grinded down to a halt with the church prosecuting those who went against what the church said was scientific fact - Galileo. The Church was in control. We could say that Aristotle persisted so long because the Church wanted it that way.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Chapter 1: The most precious thing

Unread post

President Camacho wrote:Aristotle persisted so long because of a dearth of scientific inquiry and selected support BY the Church. The search for knowledge grinded down to a halt with the church prosecuting those who went against what the church said was scientific fact - Galileo. The Church was in control. We could say that Aristotle persisted so long because the Church wanted it that way.
Hey Comacho, it's been a while. For what it's worth, I've come to see your view of the Church and scientific progress as way too simplified at the least. Ant and stahrwe steered me in a different direction. David C. Lindberg and Ronald Numbers are historians with views on this matter that are worth listening to.
Post Reply

Return to “Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark - by Carl Sagan with Ann Druyan”