Zach,

LOL! God must have a sick sense of humor in my case then... create me with a mental imbalance so that I hear music in my head and then make me tone deaf so that I'm the only one who can appreciate it. The bastard!

Greg,

What you said makes a lot of sense. I don't really worry about the "condition." Actually, I'm fascinated with this stuff. There is so much that we don't understand about the mind and consciousness.

I hadn't really thought about it until now, but perhaps I'm not really as awake as I think I am. There have been times when I was lying in bed having a discussion with my husband and my conversation would become completely inappropriate because I was starting to fall asleep while I was talking. My husband would say, "What in the world are you talking about, Cheryl?" And I would say, "Wow, I have no idea. That didn't make a bit of sense." On one occasion while chatting I continued typing while dozing off. I looked at my screen and what I had typed were complete sentences but had nothing to do with the conversation.

I guess it's possible to think you're more awake than you really are. Perhaps the voices are just an altered state of consciousness or perhaps they are just my brain interpreting internal sounds as music. Or possibly I am experiencing some type of auditory hallucination. All of those explanations are more plausible than aliens, ghosts or demons.

Cheryl

Well, this is difficult chapter for me to discuss because it made me feel irritable.

If anyone should have hallucinations, it should be me, because a) I am an epileptic and took medication called myceline until I was about 17, when I refused to take any more because the cure was worse than the disease in my case. Anyway, I haven't taken any medication since then and I have only had one attack about 34 years ago now......but I do stress that my attacks were quite mild and not the violent tongue biting efforts. But I did have them from birth and often in quite embarrassing situations - at school on the stage, singing in the choir, and at the bank once when I was delivery the cash takings from the small firm for whom I worked. And b) because my Mum was a Spritualist and I grew up taking the spirit world for granted, and I wasn't interested in it at all. I am now of course, but that is only comparatively recently.

I believe absolutely in the spirit-world and yet I have never seen a spirit person, or ever heard one. I did hallucinate once when I was about eight years old with a high fever, but even then I only saw my playmates on the ceiling, shouting for me to come and play. I never saw any monsters and was never afraid of the dark. Of course I was always taught that I had a guardian angel, or guide, so I always felt protected.

It upsets me to think of Carl's parents trying to let him know that they were still around, it isn't easy for the spirit world to contact us so far as I have read. But, good grief, if his mum and dad had appeared to him in person......Carl would have said he was hallucinating.....He must be clairaudient, that means he hears. Clairvoyant means you can see them. Some can do both. I can't do either.

I felt irrirated because Carl was talking mostly in this chapter about seeing little grey aliens.......not edifying at all and not much use to anyone, to imagine aliens.

I have been convinced by an absolute stranger who spoke to me, but of course, there is no convincing a person who is determined that it is all in our minds and we are either lying or imagining things......so that's OK. It was enough for me.

As most of you know, I am a praying person, and sometimes I feel that I am praying a prayer that wont be answered to a God who isn't there......but I can't not pray.

Today, in our daily newspaper was a 'Notes and Queries' question. What is the purpose of philosophy and philosophers? One respondent said, 'Once we accept that....there is no point in our existence, philosophy and philosophers become redundant'. That sounds like living without purpose to me.

From time to time, repeated surveys have shown that 10 to 25% of ordinary, functioning people have experienced at least once in their lifetimes a vivid hallucination - hearing a voice, usually, or seeing a form when there's no one there. More rarely, people sense a haunting aroma, or hear music, or receive a revelation that arrives independent of the sense.

- DHW


Well, Sagan is likely to dismiss anything and everything there is no evidence for, or would be contrary to our understanding of the natural world, which Sagan (and others) undoubtedly believes (or has faith) is a complete understanding of reality.

I'm just a little less than halfway through this chapter. And, yes, Sagan starts off again talking about little green men.
Is it just me, or does it seem like Sagan is obsessed with little green men and UFOs? We might as well refer to little green men from outer space as ghosts that Sagan for some reason never lost his childhood obsession about.

The reason I offered the quote above is because I'd like to know if Sagan ever offered an explanation for a joint olfactory hallucination.

ant wrote:Well, Sagan is likely to dismiss anything and everything there is no evidence for, or would be contrary to our understanding of the natural world

Just curious, but is there another way? How should we treat things that are contrary to our understanding of the natural world?

Interbane wrote:

ant wrote:Well, Sagan is likely to dismiss anything and everything there is no evidence for, or would be contrary to our understanding of the natural world

Just curious, but is there another way? How should we treat things that are contrary to our understanding of the natural world?

I don't know..,
Maybe if our understanding of the natural world is incomplete to a degree we do not know then the best position is an agnostic one.

(of course that's not to say many anecdotal tales can not be explained adequately).

Heck, it's even possible to be agnostic about thematic art if you're skeptical enough.
Right?

just wondering..,

what has been the PROGRESS that's been made with gathering EVIDENCE for INTELLIGENT alien life?

I would think zero progress, without even looking it up. I could be wrong.

ant and Interbane:


ant wrote:
Well, Sagan is likely to dismiss anything and everything there is no evidence for, or would be contrary to our understanding of the natural world




Just curious, but is there another way? How should we treat things that are contrary to our understanding of the natural world?

According to Sagan, we can't count the evidence of our own eyes and ears - because we hallucinate. One of the reasons for my belief in the afterlife is that a perfect stranger - gave me a message from someone who had recently passed over and he named the name. The name of the person was 'Jeremy' so it wasn't an all that common name. He also gave me his message which was very personal and meaningful. Now, that was evidence to me.....but means nothing to anyone else much. It made me very happy though, and it was just what that Jeremy would have done.

I think I must add here, in case you get the wrong idea about me and my morals, that Jeremy was the father of my grandson.

Interbane wrote:I would think zero progress, without even looking it up. I could be wrong.

Okay, fine.

So at what point does the clock start clicking on a hypothesis that has zero progress after 20 years?
If this was a public funds issue, the debate would be over. We simply could not continue to throw money into a "scientific" endeavor simply because its been branded as science by "experts" on alien intelligence.


Right?

BTW, are there any experts on alien intelligence?