i've been prayerfully searching the inerrant, perfect word of God for clues as to why Interbane seems impervious to reason, and the Lord has shown me a large part of the answer!!! who says God doesn't answer prayer, praise Him!

In their case, the god of this age (Satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Satan has blinded Interbanes mind, poor thing, everytime the word starts to gain a foothold in Interbanes mind the "Prince of the power of the air" snatches it away

like in this parable

Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

poor Interbane, Satan is too powerful an opponent.

i'm going to pray for Interbane... Jesus, bind the strong man who holds Interbane in darkness of ignorance, the Lord rebuke you Satan, release your grip on the mind of Interbane, i command it in the glorious name above all names, the beautiful name of Jesus.... we ask it all in His precious and holy name, Amen.

thankYou Jesus!!

well that should have done the trick

i feel better already, i am filled with expectation that this prayer will be answered, of course if it isn't, there is always the fall-back position

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

yes, if Interbane fails to respond to the Prayer Power of the saints in Christ, well then Inter will be judged and duly tortured by God, our loving Heavenly Father, according to my understanding of the holy writ.

that'll teach Inter for not being responsive to the power of prayer. (or will it?)

i would have prayed longer for Him Lord but i have to ask for a parking space. Lord please find ME a parking space

i found this "anecdote" referencing Hudson

In the year 1854 a sailing vessel was becalmed in the vicinity of New Guinea. Seeing the distressed look on the captain's face as he peered intently into the sea, a young Englishman inquired as to the cause of his anxiety. This was the reply: "A four-knot current is carrying us swiftly toward some sunken reefs over there. Our fate seems to be sealed." On the shores of the island, cannibals were rushing about and lighting fires in great glee. Presently the captain spoke again: "We have done everything that can be done." "No," responded the young man, "there is one thing we haven't done. Four of us on board are Christians. Let each of us retire to his cabin and in agreed prayer ask the Lord to give us a breeze immediately." This was agreed upon and done. After a few minutes of earnest intercession, the young man came up on deck confident that the petition had been granted. Finding the first officer, a godless man, in charge, he requested him to let down the corners of the mainsail. "What would be the good of that?" he asked. The young man told him that he and three others had been asking God to send a wind, that it was coming immediately and that there was not a minute to lose, since they were so near the reefs. With a look of contempt, the officer replied with an oath: "Nonsense! You can't pray up a wind." Noticing a few moments later that the topmost sail was beginning to tremble, he said: "That is only a cat's-paw — a mere puff of wind." "Never mind what you think," cried the young man. "Let down the mainsail quickly."

This he was not slow to do. Hearing the heavy tread of the men on deck, the captain came up from his cabin and saw that the breeze had indeed come. In a few minutes they were sailing away from the dangerous reefs, much to the disappointment of the native cannibals on the beach.

if only those cannibals had known of the power of prayer!!! they wouldn't have gone hungry!!!

praise you Lord

Flann 5 wrote: When I point to evidence like providential answers to prayer in Hudson Taylor life,you just dismiss it as a series of highly improbable coincidences.

Let's suppose this story is true AND let's suppose that God exists and answers these kinds of prayers.

How many thousands of people are praying at this very moment who are living in total misery, whose innocent loved ones are dying or have died, including children?

It's one thing to say, hey, it's God's policy not to intervene in human affairs, he doesn't just answer prayers like that -- there's free will, he's got a master plan that you can't understand, etc. But according to your view, he does in fact make exceptions -- either they are rare or maybe he does lots of small interventions that just seem like good luck. In that case, doesn't God seem like a capricious, sadistic asshole? You just chalk it up to pure mystery? It will be rectified in the afterlife? How much suffering is necessary before you question his benevolence?

As Hitchens said, it's a good thing this tyrant doesn't exist.

This is your view Interbane.
When I point to evidence like providential answers to prayer in Hudson Taylor life,you just dismiss it as a series of highly improbable coincidences.He ran a hospital and you can't depend on coincidences arriving continually to live and provide for real staff and patients.
They were often close to running out of food and supplies but always supplies arrived just in time from long distance voyages sometimes which took a long time.These convergences of events perfectly timed you can dismiss as coincidences but they corresponded to specific needs and prayer requests.

Sorry if I sounded dismissive towards these things Flann. They are amazing and miraculous. At the same time, they are expected in a naturalistic universe. I'm not saying this to win debate points or cheapen your position. The convergence of events that are miracles are guaranteed to happen in naturalism. Scour the internet and you'll find countless mathematicians backing this point up. These amazing, miraculous events are not less amazing or miraculous for being naturalistic. In my mind, they are even more so.

You talk about proper method but it seems to me that evidence is often presented to fit the prepackaged Darwinian story.

The darwinian story is complex and has been unfolding for two centuries, and has yet to unfold. People argue over which conclusions to draw because using proper method in uncovering then analyzing evidence is a difficult thing. It takes education and practice, and we will continue to debate this topic into the future. Naturally, those with more education and practice in applying method to the topic ending up understanding that the conclusion of evolution is justified. That's what you'd expect if it were true. This is a hard set line, which is why you have so many harmonization movements, those who say that perhaps god developed the code initially, or god set up the laws of physics to allow for evolution. It is why the pope in 1996 declared that "truth cannot contradict truth".

You will never be without a source of contrary opinion, and that is healthy for science. But don't apply any less skepticism to what men like Lennox or Ham say than to what men like Dawkins and Dennett say. The ambiguous "method" speak is probably irritating. If you're already against the method of science, I don't think anyone could persuade you that it is an effective method at minimizing bias. Instead, focus on logic, both formal and informal, and the intellectual traits found in critical thinking. There's a lot of reading involved, but it's the only way to know what I'm talking about.

Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Back to religious memes. Put yourself in the mental shoes of an intelligent Christian who hears this line, and combines it with the passages that speak of how drascally villianous Satan is with slippery words and convincing lies. I know that personally, I would be infinitely skeptical of every word I heard that spoke against religion. At least, I would have this skepticism if I honestly believed the passages in question. Many people believe these passages, and many people are therefore irrationally skeptical of every argument posed against religion.

This doesn't apply to every Christian, but I'm sure it applies to a great deal. It's one example amongst many where a single concept immunizes the worldview against rational examination. Any rational examination(using words and logic to examine it), will be distrusted to an amazing degree for fear of the words being influenced by satan. In Dennett speak, this is powerful antibody resistance.

I got tired of reading Interbane's algorithm explanation sketches for his mechanical universe.

The "mechanical universe" is an old view that is already in semi-retirement.

Dexter wrote: It's one thing to say, hey, it's God's policy not to intervene in human affairs, he doesn't just answer prayers like that -- there's free will, he's got a master plan that you can't understand, etc. But according to your view, he does in fact make exceptions -- either they are rare or maybe he does lots of small interventions that just seem like good luck. In that case, doesn't God seem like a capricious, sadistic asshole? You just chalk it up to pure mystery? It will be rectified in the afterlife? How much suffering is necessary before you question his benevolence?

Hi Dexter, I think the question of prayer,suffering and evil is very difficult. Everyone I think experiences these things to some degree or other in their own lives or family members lives along with what we see and is reported all around us.
I think if you want to critique the Christian teaching on prayer,suffering and evil it requires some effort to understand as comprehensively as possible what that is. Suffering and evil exist and Christianity speaks about these things. There is a conditional aspect to prayer which you may not agree with but needs to be understood.
The fact is that everyone dies sooner or later and there is no biblical promise that this can be averted by prayer ultimately.
Christianity gives a comprehensive picture of reality in terms of death entering creation and evil and suffering and what if anything God does or has done in relation to it.
For the atheist there is no such thing as evil and no possible meaning in suffering and death, just the end of a process of physical degeneration or bad luck to be born in the wrong country etc.It's all just part of a mindless mechanical process where what we see is just genes trying to survive and replicate. It is utterly meaningless and purposeless in itself, and ends as meaninglessly with non existence for individuals and the planet that just happened accidentally to create life for no reason whatsoever will also be extinguished for no reason.
Michael Shermer and John Lennox attempt to address these issues from their worldview perspectives. No one can pretend there are glib answers to it or that we possess omniscience to know detailed or even satisfactory answers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3TAiZRKr50 It's the Nature of Evil and Suffering; Lennox and Shermer.

ant wrote:The "mechanical universe" is an old view that is already in semi-retirement.

It's called metaphysical naturalism, and doesn't exclude quantum indeterminacy. If you know of any worldview more truthful, present it in another thread. I'd be happy to have that conversation.

Flann wrote:I think if you want to critique the Christian teaching on prayer,suffering and evil it requires some effort to understand as comprehensively as possible what that is

When you seek understanding, do you simply absorb the information, or do you apply filters?