Interbane wrote:Yet in so many of those cases, the leaders die with the members. People are crazy with their beliefs.
The same issues all exist. How do you explain why the first copies of the "eyewitness testimonies" didn't appear until decades after Jesus died? Either they waited way too long, casting doubt on the entire works. Or they wrote some of it during the time of Jesus, and it was edited and harmonized during the following decades. Why else would we be missing any and all manuscripts from earlier? What historian uses methods that allow this deviation?
Regarding dying for something they claim to be eyewitness to, it still hasn't been shown that they were eyewitness to an actual man Jesus. Has it been shown that the authors of the gospels truly died for what they wrote? Their deaths can be confirmed with more rigor than that of Jesus?
I'm chiming in as ignorant of much of the scholarship, but these are the questions I would ask.
Thanks Interbane. I think you have to compare like with like. What mass suicide and death of a cult leader is comparable to the new testament accounts and Christian accounts of persecution and execution of such as Stephen, Paul and Peter? In fact Paul appealed to Caesar when tried, though he was prepared to die if necessary,and eventually was beheaded by Nero.
When the Christians were persecuted in Jerusalem many fled and were dispersed as in fact Jesus told the apostles to do in the gospel account.At the same time when the issue was forced about worshiping Caesar as God ,many did in fact die.
I don't see why your either/ or distinction must apply concerning how much of the gospels(entire or partial) were written early though it's thought they were written probably two,three and more decades later. Christian accounts place John's gospel in the 90s which is late but if in fact John wrote it,what is the problem?When Luke wrote his gospel he mentions that other accounts had already been written.
I don't think the waited far too long argument is valid.The apostles initially preached the teachings of Jesus and later the gospels were written down.If Matthew and Mark wrote gospels even thirty years later,Matthew was an eyewitness and the early Christians who were still alive would know if they were historically accurate or not and their enemies would have quickly pointed out if these were myths or fabrications.
As I've said before, it's simply a matter of physical reality that papyrus is perishable and this applies to all writings using papyrus.This is why original versions of all ancient historic writings don't exist unless written on animal hides or engraved on stone or other materials that are not as perishable.
That such as Polycarp writing very early in the second century quotes extensively from the gospels indicates they already existed and those in the church he wrote to, possessed copies of them as they did of Paul's much earlier letters.
Were they witnesses to an actual man? They certainly claimed they were.Just as historians distinguish between Julius Caesar and Apollo and writings concerning them the same kind of criteria should be applied to the historicity of Christ.
I'm not a scholar on all this myself Interbane. Certainly there are recorded accounts from Christians relating to the executions of Paul and Peter in Rome and Tacitus for one records the persecution of Christians at that time by Nero.
I think the whole editing and harmonising argument has not been proven. Sceptics never weary of pointing out what they consider to be glaring contradictions between the gospels. Either the harmonising editor was a complete bungler and not a Machievellian genius or in fact there was no such editing.
In reality though, the transmission of the gospels by copying indicates varied streams of manuscript traditions from all over the world and no such centralised editing and harmonising would have been possible in these circumstances.
Here's a link to an article by textual critic Dan Wallace and another on new testament transmission by Jeffrey Krause on the reliability of the biblical text.
http://www.appliedapologetics.wordpress ... l-wallace/
I fear I may be turning you into a theologian,Interbane!