Interbane wrote:I start with skepticism and go from there. I haven't had any reason to believe the stories were true. I'm not sure who you're referring to above, but I don't buy the premise. Support the story with proper method and we'll talk.
Can you show that biblical characters were real people? If so, that doesn't mean any of the events attributed to them actually happened. I'm sure some did, but I'm also sure that some were fabricated. That is how men document things - embellished stories. It's amazing how this point never seems to sink in to true believers.
Hi Interbane, Thanks for your replies,
I'll attempt to address your main points here, beginning with a quote from Paul's first letter to the Corinthian Christians.
"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures,and that he was seen by Cephas,then by the twelve. After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once,of whom the greater part remain to the present,but some have fallen asleep. After that he was seen by James, then by all the apostles.Then last of all he was seen by me also....."
We find the following words recorded in the book of Acts as Peter's words to a crowd including Jews and visitors from other countries on the day of Pentecost.
" Men of Israel,hear these words:Jesus of Nazareth,a man attested by God to you by miracles wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know- him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God,you have taken by lawless hands,have crucified,and put to death; whom God raised up,having loosed the pains of death,because it was not possible that he should be held by it.
"For David says concerning him; I foresaw the Lord always before my face,For he is at my right hand,that I may not be shaken.Therefore my heart rejoiced,and my tongue was glad;Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.For you will not leave my soul in Hades,nor will allow your holy one to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life;You will make me full of joy in your presence.
"Men and brethren,let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David,that he is both dead and buried,and his tomb is with us to this day.Therefore being a prophet,and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him that of the fruit of his body,according to the flesh,he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,he foreseeing this,spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ,that his soul was not left in Hades,nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up,of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God,and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens,but he says himself;
The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand,till I make your enemies your footstool."
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,that God has made this Jesus,whom you crucified both Lord and Christ."
Now when they heard this,they were cut to the heart,and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles,",Men and brethren,what shall we do." Acts 2-22-36.
If we ask the question; How could these Jews have been persuaded to believe that Jesus was the prophesied messiah or Christ, and that he had died and been raised from the dead, what is the answer? How could residents of Jerusalem be persuaded of an event they could easily know and disprove if it had not happened? Crucifixions were public events. Along with the gospel accounts we have reference to this ,albeit later, in such as the writings of Tacitus. How are there Christians in Rome later who believe exactly these things?
Paul refers to witnesses to the resurrection in having met and seen Jesus after his crucifixion and death, and says many were still alive at the time of writing. How could Peter appeal to signs and miracles performed by Jesus to contemporary residents if they would easily have known if it was not true?
The apostles repeatedly cite old testament prophecies concerning a messiah who would suffer and die to make atonement for sin but would live on: e.g. Isaiah ch53, and psalm22 which strongly suggests crucifixion.
Granted that accounts of the deaths of Peter, Paul and others come from traditional Christian sources, does this mean they must be false? And later it is well attested historically, many Christians were executed for sport and died for their convictions. So the question is;How did the first Christians come to believe these things?
I accept that ant has a valid criticism in relation to apriori rejection of possible natural explanation of origins. So currently we have naturalistic theories and they need to be evaluated.
Neo Darwinism is currently the main version in terms of origin of life from some original, simple material source.It's not universally accepted and critics point to deficiencies and what looks contrary to it in terms of the fossil record along with other problems.Maybe it's supporters can address these problems or maybe not. Creationists raise questions and even if people don't like the source, the question is whether the substance of the criticism can be scientifically and logically refuted.
Here's an example in relation to Meta-information.
www.creation.com/meta-information