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Record return of artic ice cap 
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
And of course we always have values motives and incentives in play on both sides. This isnt about "the good guys" trying to save us from the evil money hungry polluters.
Robert would like us to think of the global warming crazies as genuine heroes that care for us all and the planet.
There are sociological motives and influences here - money, prestige, etc
Robert wants us to think science is practiced in a vacuum.



Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
Quote:
Everyone always at some point "appeals to authority" Interbane.
Even guys like you


Absolutely, and there are legitimate ways to appeal to authority. There are also fallacious ways to appeal to authority, which The Wizard is guilty of.


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Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:17 pm
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
ant wrote:
This isnt about "the good guys" trying to save us from the evil money hungry polluters.
Yes it is. Supporters of business as usual have sold their souls to the devil. The challenge is to preserve capitalism in a context where it has been corrupted by cronyism. Only innovative technology produced through free market methods will enable sustainable geoengineering at scale, which is the only thing that will save us from global warming.
ant wrote:
global warming crazies
Just like Churchill was crazy for opposing Hitler in the 1930s. Climate denialists are worse than holocaust denialists, since the global impact of runaway climate change would be much worse than the second world war.

I see ant has not conceded that his Daily Mail shitsheet was lies, as proven by the scientific rebuttals I posted. Remember, ant does not believe in atomic theory. Go figure.


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Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
there is little wrong with asking questions about the objectivity within a given field of science . Note that i mentioned early on in this thread that opening up our scientific community discussions on climate change (brought to the forefront by "climategate") was reasonable. A Popperian flavor in which a field opens itself up genuinely to criticism should be cheered on by any honest, truth seeking individual.

But then again we will always have facism in many forms.
Robert becomes quite the scientific facist whenever data is presented that is contrary to his unexamined biases.
:)
Also, i do not believe that the artic has warmed as the models predicted.
That is a good sign in some way that is significant. But the prophets of doom will stick to their guns because The Oracle at Delphi has given the future of a chaotic system.



Last edited by ant on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:12 am
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
ant wrote:
there is little wrong with asking questions about the objectivity within a given field of science .
Of course, everyone should agree with that. But that is not even remotely what the Daily Mail article in the opening post is trying to do. Rather, it seeks to sow disinformation in order to serve the hidden agenda of increased short term commercial profit through opening up the Arctic to mining and shipping, damning the planet to ecological destruction. The lack of ethics is astonishing.
ant wrote:
Note that i mentioned early on in this thread that opening up our scientific community discussions on climate change (brought to the forefront by "climategate") was reasonable.
Milking leaked emails from years ago which reflect little more than tactical despair about how to share scientific findings in a context where big oil has taken on the methods of big tobacco has no relevance to the current Arctic melting crisis.
ant wrote:
A Popperian flavor in which a field opens itself up genuinely to criticism should be cheered on by any honest, truth seeking individual.
Invoking Popper as some sort of high priest of climate denial is utter bilge. Genuine criticism requires honesty, a quality which denialists do not comprehend. All honest climate scientists know human emissions are driving climate change. Against this overwhelming consensus about the facts, Sir Karl Popper would turn in his grave to be invoked as a champion of liars.
ant wrote:
But then again we will always have facism in many forms.
Robert becomes quite the scientific facist whenever data is presented that is contrary to his unexamined biases.
:)
No need for the smily ant, when you are promoting lies, readily exposed by anyone who looks at the links in this thread. There is no "contrary data", there is just the cherrypicking of a dead cat bounce as though the reversion to the mean in 2013 of Arctic ice level is a "record return". Sorry, but your thread title is just disinformation and manipulation. Calling my refutation of your lies fascist really takes you into the gutter. My bias is in favour of scientific method. Yours is in favour of weird supernatural religious faith, denial of atomic theory and evolution, and now promotion of climate ignorance.
ant wrote:
Also, i do not believe that the artic has warmed as the models predicted.
That is a good sign in some way that is significant. But the prophets of doom will stick to their guns because The Oracle at Delphi has given the future of a chaotic system.

There is nothing Delphic about science. Science just uses simple observation to form predictions. Of course weather is chaotic, as is well known, but the ants of this world will trumpet every zag and ignore every zig in the remorseless march to a hotter world.

Ant "does not believe", implying that facts are some sort of optional religion. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts. Suggesting that climate science is a matter of belief shows that ant is like the fabled ostrich, refusing to look. I have given links in this thread which show that the arctic has melted far faster than scientists predicted. The error was that scientists were too conservative. 2013 has about the fourth lowest Arctic ice volume on record. It appears that ant has simply ignored the facts, preferring instead to sling wild slurs about what he calls "facism".


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Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:17 am
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
Robert Tulip wrote:
ant wrote:
This isnt about "the good guys" trying to save us from the evil money hungry polluters.
Yes it is. Supporters of business as usual have sold their souls to the devil. The challenge is to preserve capitalism in a context where it has been corrupted by cronyism. Only innovative technology produced through free market methods will enable sustainable geoengineering at scale, which is the only thing that will save us from global warming.
ant wrote:
global warming crazies
Just like Churchill was crazy for opposing Hitler in the 1930s. Climate denialists are worse than holocaust denialists, since the global impact of runaway climate change would be much worse than the second world war.

I see ant has not conceded that his Daily Mail shitsheet was lies, as proven by the scientific rebuttals I posted. Remember, ant does not believe in atomic theory. Go figure.


Geoengineering--ugh! As though we haven't yet demonstrated hubris enough in regard to controlling nature. And this geoengineering will occur through market forces and not through government fiat? How?

I think the view of all of this as a pitched battle between good and evil, the view Robert takes, is more than a bit much. There is a lot of crude labeling of the actors involved.



Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:26 am
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
DWill wrote:
. . . I think the view of all of this as a pitched battle between good and evil, the view Robert takes, is more than a bit much. There is a lot of crude labeling of the actors involved.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The idea that one year's worth of ice formation (in the arctic only) can be seen as evidence for or against global climate change is pure nonsense, of course. However, I think it behooves us to see that most of the climate change movement has very little to do with science. There's science at work, no question, and it continues to bolster our confidence that human emissions are causing or contributing to warming. However, it's still a very broad kind of scientific understanding, not much more than an extrapolation of the greenhouse effect. This is to be expected of course based on the complexity of climate and the fact that we are still in early stages of learning about it.

Normally we don’t need to take a hard line position when it comes to scientific theory and we don't usually have to rely on the consensus view. In this case, however, we don’t have time to sit back and wait for smoking-gun evidence which might never come. We have to act right now. But the conversation remains more nuanced than some try to make it out to be. There’s plenty of room for debate about what we can do to address global warming—the political side of the argument.

Given that state of things, I don't think it's really fair to say "climate deniers are worse than holocaust denialists" because a big part of the debate has to do with the political side. Those who aren’t willing to jump on the political solutions bandwagon are being labeled as “deniers.” Us-versus-them. I don’t see how it helps.

I like Judith Curry's take on a recent NPR interview. She says, we just don't know.

http://www.npr.org/2013/08/22/213894792 ... ate-change

See the link at the bottom of the page for a different persepctive.


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Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:15 pm
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
geo wrote:
The idea that one year's worth of ice formation (in the arctic only) can be seen as evidence for or against global climate change is pure nonsense, of course.
So scientists put this year in the context of 34 years of detailed measurement as shown in this graph of the Arctic death spiral since 1979, as I have been explaining in this thread. Here we see how close the Arctic is to zero summer ice. When that happens, the albedo amplification effects could make the situation permanent, especially if we continue to add forty billion tonnes of CO2 to the air each year as a forcer. Great for shippers' and miners' dreams, but a good recent paper estimated net costs in the tens of trillions of dollars. The danger of methane permafrost release from arctic warming is big. The Arctic is the canary in the global coal mine, where climate sensitivity is double the rest of the planet. The crisis is happening now.

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Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Record return of artic ice cap
I should have said if it's true that this year's ice formation in the arctic ice is normal, we still couldn't use it as evidence for or against global warming. (That's the gist of the article, right?) Because it's just one year and that could be an anomaly.

That said, I don't think it's true that ice formation in the arctic is normal. The graph Robert posted confirms that ice formation is actually much lower now than in the 1970s. That alone doesn't prove anything either, but it is part of a growing body of evidence that the earth is in a definite warming trend.

What is normal ice formation in the arctic anyway? Even if we knew the last 10,000 years, that's still only a very limited snapshot. We humans are so arrogant and pretend to know the big picture when we don't. We're always so sure that catastrophe is just around the corner. Whatever happened to the overpopulation catastrophe predicted by Malthus? Whatever happened to the acid rain scare? The thinning ozone layer scare? The rainforests being cut down scare? Turns out we're not really very good at predicting the future. I'm not saying that global warming isn't a real threat. I do think it is.


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Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:02 pm
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