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"Belief has no place in science"

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geo

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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:But from a broad historical perspective, I'm highlighting the fact that science is not the triumphal forward marching parade it is often seen and reported as being.
The history you're pulling from is when science was in it's formulative years. It is definitely useful as a note of caution, but there are markers that go beyond induction which can show us we're on the right path. While minor offshoots and divergent paths may fluctuate with paradigm change, the main pathways are all but certain. We've discussed these before. We can have near certainty with many of the findings of science. If that seems to be a change in perspective or premature, then you're ignoring parts of the world around you that show otherwise.
But why would anyone focus on the wrong turns? If you find a solution by trial and error, then you would call the process a success. The scientific process, which benefits from its mistakes as well as it does from its successes, can only be seen as an overall success.

Indeed, the early formative stages of science were a necessary transition from magical thinking. James Frazer, author of THE GOLDEN BOUGH discusses this early transition when early "savages" created a special class of citizens to pursue the mysteries of nature:
Frazer wrote:But a great step in advance has been taken when a special class of magicians has been instituted; when, in other words, a number of men have been set apart for the express purpose of benefiting the whole community by their skill, whether that skill be directed to the healing of diseases, the forecasting of the future, the regulation of the weather, or any other object of general utility. The impotence of the means adopted by most of these practitioners to accomplish their ends ought not to blind us to the immense importance of the institution itself. Here is a body of men relieved, at least in the higher stages of savagery, from the need of earning their livelihood by hard manual toil, and allowed, nay, expected and encouraged, to prosecute researches into the secret ways of nature. It was at once their duty and their interest to know more than their fellows, to acquaint themselves with everything that could aid man in his arduous struggle with nature, everything that could mitigate his sufferings and prolong his life. The properties of drugs and minerals, the causes of rain and drought, of thunder and lightning, the changes of the seasons, the phases of the moon, the daily and yearly journeys of the sun, the motions of the stars, the mystery of life, and the mystery of death, all these things must have excited the wonder of these early philosophers, and stimulated them to find solutions of problems that were doubtless often thrust on their attention in the most practical form by the importunate demands of their clients, who expected them not merely to understand but to regulate the great processes of nature for the good of man. That their first shots fell very far wide of the mark could hardly be helped. The slow, the never-ending approach to truth consists in perpetually forming and testing hypotheses, accepting those which at the time seem to fit the facts and rejecting the others. The views of natural causation embraced by the savage magician no doubt appear to us manifestly false and absurd; yet in their day they were legitimate hypotheses, though they have not stood the test of experience. Ridicule and blame are the just meed, not of those who devised these crude theories, but of those who obstinately adhered to them after better had been propounded. Certainly no men ever had stronger incentives in the pursuit of truth than these savage sorcerers. To maintain at least a show of knowledge was absolutely necessary; a single mistake detected might cost them their life. This no doubt led them to practise imposture for the purpose of concealing their ignorance; but it also supplied them with the most powerful motive for substituting a real for a sham knowledge, since, if you would appear to know anything, by far the best way is actually to know it.
-Geo
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geo

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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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ant wrote: Trivial and condescending?
Far from it. You're being defensive.
Actually, my response was to Robert. You're isolating my post, taking it out if context.

Do you have faith in science, Geo?
I wouldn't use the word "faith" which is usually used for belief in something not supported by evidence. I have confidence in the scientific process, of course.
-Geo
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ant

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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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I wouldn't use the word "faith" which is usually used for belief in something not supported by evidence. I have confidence in the scientific process, of course.
Confidence based on the imperfect nature of science and the unpredictability of which direction(s) science will lead us when present and future hypothesis are overturned for new and better ones, correct?
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geo

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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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I have confidence in the knowledge gained by the scientific process.
-Geo
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Robert Tulip

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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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It is nice that ant has continued to express what geo called 'black knight' levels of skepticism about science. I can't quite figure his motives, except that it seems to be associated with a confused vision of a religious re-enchantment. My own view is that we can have a scientific enchantment, fwiw.

Here ant critiques my analysis of insulation of belief as dogmatic. Yes, I am dogmatic about scientific knowledge. As an example of what I meant by insulation of true belief, science holds dogmatically to the teaching that the earth orbits the sun as explained by celestial mechanics, and that no one can usefully critique this claim who does not fully understand it.

It is not that science knows everything there is to know about the earth's orbit, but that what science does know is true. I myself have argued how we can extend scientific knowledge of earth's orbit in terms of axial wobble, but this is not at all to cast doubt on existing knowledge.

This orbital example illustrates how dogma can be justified. Just because the church promotes false dogmas about miracles does not mean that all dogmatic teaching is wrong. Where our experience is simply impossible unless a teaching is true, we should consider it true.

Dogma is necessary to give knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. We should back our judgment that modern knowledge is accurate. Faint heart never won fair lady.
ant wrote:"Disagree. True beliefs should be completely insulated, and probable beliefs should be partly insulated"


Beliefs about the natural world are based on evidence.
How evidence is collected and how it is interpreted is by and large subject to the influences and limitations that govern the current paradigm in place. What keeps the paradigm from remaining dominant is falsification.
A scientific proposition about the nature of reality should never be insulated. Insulation ossifies into dogma.
Besides, what evidence can you have that signifies you've arrived at truth?
All you can ever hope for is that you are pointing yourself in the right direction.

Science is constantly reformulating hypothesis, interpreting data differently, refining questions, making new connections, excluding false connections, discovering different patterns of behavior.
I could go on and on.

We remain faithful to the scientific method and HOPE that it is pointing us in the right direction.
Our understanding is and always has been a temporary state. History repeatedly tells us this.
Science is inductive dependent. The trick is to not cast ourselves too far ahead of our vision, which is admittedly limited. But we often want only to speak of our temporary triumphs and gloss over our many revisions.
We want to cover up the warts (Kuhn) in order to maintain an image of science being a linear journey.
It is not. It has been an erratic journey to date.
It is a largely successful means of examining nature. But it is not a smashing success as some profess.
Not even close.
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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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Confidence based on the imperfect nature of science and the unpredictability of which direction(s) science will lead us when present and future hypothesis are overturned for new and better ones, correct?
When old theories are overturned for new and better ones, that's exactly the advantage science has over other attempts to understand the world.

And you are overplaying what happens when new ideas are incorporated into science. After einstein figured out relativity, that didn't invalidate everything newton had right... it just added to it. Our fundamental understanding of exactly what's happening when something falls down changed, but newton still mostly had it right. For everyday experiences, on a planet like ours, Newton's formulation worked just fine. And when Einstein told us E=M(C*C), what went up still had to come down.

Linean taxonomy had lots of stuff right too. There are problems and they are being addressed by phylogenetic cladistics, but cladistics doesn't overturn the whole nested set family tree of taxonomy. It refines it so that we can more accurately place animals in that tree.

So really, what are you trying to point out here, ant? That science has been a system of trial and error? That we make mistakes trying to find the truth? that approximations can be refined?
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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ant wrote: It is a largely successful means of examining nature. But it is not a smashing success as some profess.
Not even close.
Compared to what?

Your apparent hostility towards science continues to be baffling. I stress apparent, because that's how it appears, even though I guess you will deny it.

You're still trying to find a strawman to argue against, are there "some" who are claiming science knows everything and that the process is flawless? Are you trying to maintain a role for religion? Then try to make a positive argument for it.
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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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Your apparent hostility towards science continues to be baffling
This actually made me laugh out loud.
It's actually hypocritically stupid and childish.

Now, now, remember our motto here on BT;
Doubt is not an attack
I'll add to it a bit..

Nor is it necessarily hostility!!

DUH!!! :roll:
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Re: "Belief has no place in science"

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ant wrote: This actually made me laugh out loud.
It's actually hypocritically stupid and childish.
If you say so. I think you just realized how dumb some of your posts are.

Keep up the good fight, you will someday destroy that strawman!

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