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Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

#111: Sept. - Nov. 2012 (Fiction)
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DWill

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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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You describe a utopia for free-marketers. Others see dystopia in this, which is where I'd put myself. You've drawn the lines clearly.
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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Whenever we implement an ideology that we think is the greatest thing since Jesus, things go wrong. Look at the fervent factions that supported Communism in the wake of Marx's writings. Communism was another idea that was great in theory, but bad in practice. Proponents of objectivism rightly point out that it's the opposite. But the opposite of an extreme is another extreme, and ideological extremes by their very nature are a thorn in humanity's side.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel with an untested ideology. The US economy and middle class has done extremely well in the past. There is a model that we know works. But things change over time. With technology like television, it was easier for campaigns to influence vast numbers of people. Large sums of money were spent on advertising. This change was a catalyst, and lobbyists rose in strength and number to fill the void between corporations and politics. This happened at the same time that revolving doors opened, in the mid 1970's. Other factors contributed as well, creating a ripe recipe for private interests to cognitively capture politicians.

With a much smaller Objectivist economy, there would still be influence. At least SOME regulation will be needed, and a much beefier judicial system to account for post-crime adjuducation, which is a necessary side effect of less regulation. Lawyers will rise in power.

The much smaller government would be more susceptible to the shock of corruption. Unless you fire or kill every lobbyist and affiliated politician(which I of course don't recommend), there is a legacy in place that no wand waving will remove. Shrinking the government in the right ways can reduce much of it. But this very process of shrinking will be corrupted before it even begins. The lobbyists and the influence are already there!

This is exactly what we're seeing. A warped version of shrinking the government. Why are we deregulating places that actually benefit from regulation, such as the financial system which has horrible information asymmetry? Why are we making tax cuts that don't stimulate the economy, and weighing the cuts upwards? Why are we cutting programs that people's lives depend on at the same time that we're providing subsidies to corporations that don't need them? We're shrinking in the wrong ways, with Objectivists taking the lead. Let's hope this Objectivism doesn't make it into the White House in a few days.

The problem is that private interests can heavily influence government. Even your Objectivism cannot work until that problem is fixed. Obama mentioned doing something about it. We'll see in time.
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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This reminds of one of the convo‘s, at Lillian’s wedding anniversary party in Rand‘s novel Atlas Shrugged, a contradictory, grossly distorted view of free market economics:
A businessman said uneasily, “What I asked you about, Professor, was what you thought about the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.”
“Oh, that?” said Dr. Pritchett. “But I believe I made it clear that I am in favor of it, because I am in favor of a free economy. A free economy cannot exist without competition. Therefore, men must be forced to compete. Therefore, we must control men in order to force them to be free.”
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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Mr A wrote:This reminds of one of the convo‘s, at Lillian’s wedding anniversary party in Rand‘s novel Atlas Shrugged, a contradictory, grossly distorted view of free market economics:
A businessman said uneasily, “What I asked you about, Professor, was what you thought about the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.”
“Oh, that?” said Dr. Pritchett. “But I believe I made it clear that I am in favor of it, because I am in favor of a free economy. A free economy cannot exist without competition. Therefore, men must be forced to compete. Therefore, we must control men in order to force them to be free.”
That's not all that great a distortion. How many people really want to compete in a marketplace when they buy a house, as apposed to simply wanting to secure a home for themselves and their family? That's a particularly poignant question in the US today. How many enjoy competing with fifty other qualified candidates for a job, when a lack of success could mean financial ruin?
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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This reminds of one of the convo‘s, at Lillian’s wedding anniversary party in Rand‘s novel Atlas Shrugged, a contradictory, grossly distorted view of free market economics:
Which part is contradictory? Which part is distorted?

Your words are cheerleading without substance. Dig into the details. Pick out some of my claims and attempt to refute them. Are you afraid you'll be shown to be wrong? Do it, quote a sentence of mine then use your evidence and reasoning against me.

If you refuse to violate one man's rights, he's going to turn around and use his extra freedom to violate the rights of his neighbors. Objectivism is a fantasy.
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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Interbane wrote:
If you refuse to violate one man's rights, he's going to turn around and use his extra freedom to violate the rights of his neighbors. Objectivism is a fantasy.
So you are still supportive of violating rights. Of which I am not. Neither is Rand. Its against her morality and her laissez-faire capitalism to violate individual rights. Anytime the government interferes with the economy itself, like regulating it, someones rights are violated whenever it does. So when a person is for regulating the economy in some way, they are also for the violation of someones rights in some way. To regulate it, is to violate rights.

So...

We will remain in disagreement then.

BTW, have you read Atlas Shrugged?
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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Interbane wrote: Which part is contradictory? Which part is distorted?
If you are unable to see, I'll show you why:

The speaker in Atlas Shrugged said,

"I am in favor of a free economy. A free economy cannot exist without competition. Therefore, men must be forced to compete. Therefore, we must control men in order to force them to be free."

Ok. In laissez-faire capitalism, we have a free market economy, with limited governemtn. The governemtn is there to uphold and protect rights and no man may initiate the use of force against another. So to say that in a free economy men must be forced to compete, is contradictory, as the government would not force men to compete in a free economy. You can't control men in order to force them to be free, as the speaker claims. What you do is leave men alone in order for them to be free. And this is essentially what laissez-faire capitalism does. It leaves you alone to be free to compete, or free not to compete, and as long as you are not violating anyones rights, you can continue to enjoy that freedom in the marketplace.
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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:|

Here's an explanation.

Let's say you violate the rights of person A. He will not turn around and be more free. That's contradictory, as you mention. I agree. But that's not what I'm saying.

It's well known that the free market allows person A to violate the right of person B in a legal fashion(duress or informational asymmetry). If the violation of person B by person A is greater than the "violation" of stopping person A, then the total sum of 'freedom' has increased. That is not contradictory, and is the way the world works. By restricting the rights of some people, you benefit the rights of many other people. The benefit of the many is greater than the loss of the few. Examples... REAL examples as opposed to dialogue from a fiction novel... real examples are everywhere. Stop trying to apply a fiction novel to the real world.
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Re: Ayn Rand joins the Ticket

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Interbane wrote:It's well known that the free market allows person A to violate the right of person B in a legal fashion
The free market in laissez-faire capitalism does not allow rights to be violated by government, through law, or by other people. It bans it, makes it illegal to do. If and when they are violated, there is the justice system in place.

We will remain in disagreement then. You are still in favor of violating rights. Period.

Rand is absolutely opposed to it, as am I. She is in full support of individual rights and the political economic social system that recognizes, upholds, and protects those rights. Those rights do not come from God, or society, they come from man's nature. Her morality is the proper moral and philosophic defense for individual rights and for laissez-faire capitalism itself.

Her writing on "The Nature of Government":
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... government

Her speaking about Objective Law:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... reg_ar_law

Objective Law:
http://principlesofafreesociety.com/objective-laws/



Again I ask you, have you read Atlas Shrugged?
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12
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