Being agnostics doesn't mean you put the likelihood as 50/50.
It just means not 100% certain.
For instance, I am not 100% certain my house will still be there when i return from the store, but i am reasonably confident and proceed as though it will be.
I am also not 100% certain there will be no gorilla in the basement when i go to do laundry, but i proceed with confidence that that is not the case.
There is a much greater chance of there being a gorilla in my basement than any god that i have heard described being real, based on everything i know about everything i know.
gorillas, i know for a fact exist. And i know that they can be transported thousands of miles from their homes in the wild. And that one would fit in my basement.
I know of nothing at all that is like god.
being agnostics does not undermine a strong position, but it does rule out 100% certainty.
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What is scientism?
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- johnson1010
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Re: What is scientism?
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
- Dexter
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Re: What is scientism?
You keep saying the same thing.ant wrote: There's nothing honest whatsoever by proclaiming you know with certainty a divine intelligence, likely beyond our limited comprehension, does not exist. That's intellectual arrogance. And yes, I know the counter accusation.
To repeat what johnson just said, on your definition of atheist, which is fine although not everyone uses it, NO ONE IS AN ATHEIST. No one in this forum that I know of. The "new atheists" are not either -- Dawkins, Hitchens. NO ONE.
Maybe there is someone out there claiming 100% certainty in proving a negative. OK, fine. You win against that person.
When communicating with people, you can state something is false, or you don't believe it, without also providing a disclaimer, i.e. "My mother was not an unicorn. But since I can't prove it, and it is possible that she was a mutant animal that still gave birth to a human, I can't say for sure."
- ant
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Re: What is scientism?
Those atheists that can make the definitional distinction should not take offense. Those that can't and claim certainty of the non existence of god are free to take offense if they choose.johnson1010 wrote:You're missing the agnostic part there, Ant.You're truly joking, right?
There's nothing honest whatsoever by proclaiming you know with certainty a divine intelligence, likely beyond our limited comprehension, does not exist. That's intellectual arrogance. And yes, I know the counter accusation.
Atheist doesn't mean "Absolute certainty there is no god."
Atheist just means does not believe. the word "atheist" doesn't make you a hardliner. It's the gnostic, or "Fundamentalist" in the chart, that makes you a hard liner. So an agnostic athest, such as myself, doesn't believe in god because there is not sufficient evidence. And like i say, it could be that there may be some permutation of a god out there, but all the ones described to me don't fit with reality.
If i were a Gnostic atheist, then you are talking about a person who claims with absolute certainty that there could not be a god, and no evidence could convince otherwise.
Fair game.
- geo
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Re: What is scientism?
Johnson and Dexter are correct about the fact that the "gnostic" atheist on my scale is an extremely rare individual. Clearly some people are militaristic against religion, black-and-white thinkers who have a difficult time empathizing with those who find meaning in religious belief. Mostly I think they're reacting against the status quo that gives religion a free pass. But pretty much anyone would change their tune if there was evidence for God's existence.Dexter wrote:You keep saying the same thing.ant wrote: There's nothing honest whatsoever by proclaiming you know with certainty a divine intelligence, likely beyond our limited comprehension, does not exist. That's intellectual arrogance. And yes, I know the counter accusation.
To repeat what johnson just said, on your definition of atheist, which is fine although not everyone uses it, NO ONE IS AN ATHEIST. No one in this forum that I know of. The "new atheists" are not either -- Dawkins, Hitchens. NO ONE.
Maybe there is someone out there claiming 100% certainty in proving a negative. OK, fine. You win against that person.
When communicating with people, you can state something is false, or you don't believe it, without also providing a disclaimer, i.e. "My mother was not an unicorn. But since I can't prove it, and it is possible that she was a mutant animal that still gave birth to a human, I can't say for sure."
The word "atheist" is used primarily to mean someone who actively believes there is no god. As previously mentioned, the problem with this is that the word "God" means so many different things to so many different people. It's a word that is in a constant state of flux and can be changed to suit any occasion. For example, Einstein's use of the word "God" was probably a synonym for the universe. The Rev. Billy Graham's "God" is closer to the god of the Old Testament.
Part of the confusion also stems from the fact that many of your vocal atheists out there have put a lot of thought into the meanings of words. Dan Barker was the one who made the distinction between "agnostic" and "atheist." "Agnostic" comes from the Greek word gnosis has to do with knowledge and "atheism" has to do with belief. An agnostic theist, therefore, is one who accepts that there is no evidence for God, but chooses to believe in God anyway. An agnostic atheist is one who accepts that there is no evidence for God, but chooses not to believe in God.
Because of the loose definitions for "God," the very concept of "gnostic" atheist does have semantic problems of its own. For example you and I are both "gnostic" atheists when it comes to the Greek pantheon. (And maybe we are to the Old Testament god as well.) In many ways I am a "gnostic" atheist because every religion's concept of "God" seems counter to the way the world really works. However, because the very definition of "God" is in a state of flux, and because I acknowledge the fact that humans don't and probably can't know all there is to know about the universe, I have to leave open the possibility that the definition of "God" may come to mean something that at our current state of knowledge is mystical and incomprehensible. Maybe there is a divine intelligence out there. (The universe is a pretty strange place) Language is our gateway to reality and because we don't really know what "God" is, we can't really understand it. The word "God" as it turns out, isn't very useful.
-Geo
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Question everything
- geo
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Re: What is scientism?
Yes, I'm joking. Sort of.ant wrote:You're truly joking, right?The only difference really is the atheist is slightly more intellectually honest
Consider this: If some divine intelligence could be shown to exist, we would immediately investigate it, all data tallied up and theories formed. This divine intelligence would no longer be "God" but some entity which becomes part of our body of knowledge and given some "scientifical" kind of name like the Quantum Didjerido. "God" by our current definition of the word is necessarily supernatural, whereas science has to do only with the natural realm. Thus, "God" is always a mystical, unknowable entity. It cannot ever be studied using the scientific method. So I guess in a way I can say with certainty that God does not exist, but I will also say there are things about the universe that are unknown and may always remain unknown to us.
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Re: What is scientism?
I started watching this discussion with Dawkins and physicist Lawrence Krauss. They make the exact same points we are making here about atheism and certainty. Watch for about 4-5 minutes from this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9UvnrARf8#t=1h0m0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9UvnrARf8#t=1h0m0s