I really like the idea of observing a changing ideal in natural law/rights.

Locke's political philosophy highly influenced Jefferson. From Locke we get the idea of Bona Civilia: Life, Liberty, health and indolency of body; and the possession of outward things, such as money, lands, houses, furniture and the like. Compare with Jefferson's philosophy above. Also, George Mason should be acknowledged.

We get 'all men are created equal' more from Locke than from Hobbes, although Locke's ideas of equality have caveats. But Hobbes does mention it. "Nature hath made men so equall, in the faculties of body, and mind; as that though there bee found one man sometimes manifestly stronger in body, or of quicker mind then another; yet when all this is reckoned together, the difference between man and man, is not so considerable, as that one man can thereupon claim to himselfe any benefit, to which another may not pretend, as well as he."

The ideas of government are different. The government for Locke is the extension of the will of the people - the collected good. The government of Hobbes is a complete subjection to the whims of a sovereign - also for the good of the people.

Hobbes' form of government is incompatible with what he wants. You can't protect yourself from a sovereign - you're constantly in a state of war with him because you have no power to check his authority over you.

Locke "I desire to know what kind of government that is, and how much better it is than the state of nature, where one man commanding a multitude, has the liberty to be judge in his own case and may do to all his subjects whatever he pleases, without the least liberty to any one to question or controle those who execute his pleasure?And in whatsoever he doth, whether led by reason, mistake or passion, must be submitted to? Much better it is in the state of nature wherein men are not bound to submit to the unjust will of another: and if he that judges, judges amiss in his own, or any other case, he is answerable for it to the rest of mankind."

Hobbes agrees that men are poor judges in their own cases. Hobbes agrees that sovereigns make mistakes. Hobbes disagrees that a state of nature is preferable to subjection. In my eyes, and in Locke's, being ruled by one man IS being in a state of nature and a state of war.

Anyone in here read any Thomas Paine? I heard he had a lot of influence on the framers of the constitution.

Camacho - are we moving on to section three? Perhaps it was a bit much to get it all done in a month, and I found section three so totally different from the rest, I thought it could even have been written by a different person. I've enjoyed reading the comments, but are we going to continue, or take a break for the time being?

I hate to say it, but I'll be busy for the next couple of months. I don't think I'll be contributing any more to the Hobbes discussion.

You've put an incredible amount of thoughts into your posts, Geo, and been really helpful.

Thanks Geo and Heledd! The Hobbes discussion is unofficially over. I hope you'll both finish the book... I hope I finish it!!! hahaha. It's definitely not light reading.

Thanks Camacho and Heledd!! I hope we can be involved in another discussion sometime. I figured this discussion would be handicapped by the difficulty of the material. I hadn't figured on being such a slow reader. I plan on finishing up eventually, read a few pages here and there. Thanks, Camacho for taking on this project. You did an excellent job.