Saffron: that's good ... where are you in GGS?

Just a thought about geography playing a lesser role as a determining factor of development nowadays ... I wonder if our perception of this lessening role relates more to our individual freedom and ability to move about the world with ease compared with the geographically restricted lives of our ancestors while the broader societal level impact of geography might be a different question altogether ... for example, where changes or limitations of geography/environment is playing a significant negative role, like areas where water supply is becoming increasingly limited (I'm thinking of California), there may be a loss of population as individuals leave that area for more promising locales .. there may be a brain drain and capital drain as people with the most 'resources' go first ... so the development impact of a negative 'geography' effect may be magnified and may happen quicker than centuries ago. This impact would be measured more at the broader societal level than as impact on individuals who may simply leave for better circumstances elsewhere. I realize I have focused on 'change' here, not long term geographical status as JD does.

I'm glad this is still going. Giselle, it might interest you that in a book of JD's that saffron and I read, Collapse, he does address the very aspects you bring up. I think in GGS he was talking about the geographic hands we are dealt, and what we were able to do with them. He touches lightly on the changes we wrought on our original inheritance. For example, the Fertile Crescent became not so fertile after salinization became such a problem. In Collapse, it's all about how societies fail, which is not always by squandering or over-exploiting resources, but is a fair amount of the time.

I see GGS as being ultimately about power--how power, both economic and military, became distributed as it is. There is much else to consider when we talk about societies that we see as good, but it's an unfortunate fact that power usually trumps.

giselle wrote:Saffron: that's good ... where are you in GGS?

I am at the end of chapter 13: Necessity's Mother. I've not had a look inside my book since last week - painting right now. When I bought my townhouse I painted everything with the exception of one room - the largest room - I am in the throws of painting it now. I promise to pick the book back up tomorrow evening. What other books are you reading? DWill's mention of Colapsed is apropos. And I also think that maybe the most important take away from GGS is the explanation of how power became distributed as it is. Colapsed is a good follow up to GGS, in that it continues to develope some of JD's ideas about the interaction between humans and the enviroment (geography).

Thanks DWill, I'll see if "Collapse" is available on Kindle. I've become a high tech reader! And I absolutely agree with you .. power makes the difference. Power, which may be derived originally from factors like production of food surplus or technological progress, can be wielded in so many different ways and to different effect, and these ways are surely culturally determined to my mind, so we must sort out the derivation of power from the use of power because they are two different things. Power is much maligned and I think often misused so deservedly maligned, but it is difficult to see how human progress would have been possible without power because without power there would be no authority hence no organization and the amassing of resources needed for significant 'progress' would have been impossible. Whether or not power SHOULD trump is a tricky question but I think the fact that it DOES trump is an observable truth.

Saffron wrote:

giselle wrote:Saffron: that's good ... where are you in GGS?

I am at the end of chapter 13: Necessity's Mother. I've not had a look inside my book since last week - painting right now. When I bought my townhouse I painted everything with the exception of one room - the largest room - I am in the throws of painting it. I promise to pick the book back up tomorrow evening. What other books are you reading? DWill's of Colapsed is apropos. I also think that maybe the most important take away from GGS is the explanation of how power became distributed as it is. Colapsed is a good follow up to GGS, in that it continues to develope some of JD's ideas about the interaction between humans and the enviroment (geography).

I understand what you mean about the 'throws of painting' although I think you mean 'throes' sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, throes is fine but best if you don't throw your paint, that would be very messy.

I'm reading "The Elusive Quest for Growth: Economists Adventures and Misadventures in the Tropics" by William Easterly, I have quoted him on this GGS thread once or twice. It's an ok read, he claims to be a 'gadfly from the World Bank', which I guess means he is a rebel with a cause but his book is pretty much right wing agenda cloaked in a bit of international economics and incentive theory. He does criticize the World Bank and it's policies but then who doesn't? Also, I've been catching up on some World Health Org papers on malaria and related development matters ... its an interest I've had for some time due, in the first place, to personal experience with it. I believe the development impact of malaria is grossly underestimated and misunderstood and I couldn't help saying so when it cropped up in GGS.

giselle wrote:

Saffron wrote:

giselle wrote:Saffron: that's good ... where are you in GGS?

I am at the end of chapter 13: Necessity's Mother. I've not had a look inside my book since last week - painting right now. When I bought my townhouse I painted everything with the exception of one room - the largest room - I am in the throws of painting it. I promise to pick the book back up tomorrow evening. What other books are you reading? DWill's of Colapsed is apropos. I also think that maybe the most important take away from GGS is the explanation of how power became distributed as it is. Colapsed is a good follow up to GGS, in that it continues to develope some of JD's ideas about the interaction between humans and the enviroment (geography).

I understand what you mean about the 'throws of painting' although I think you mean 'throes' sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, throes is fine but best if you don't throw your paint, that would be very messy.

I am so tired I feel as if I could fall asleep on my feet - so, throes, throws, they are all the same to me at the moment. I must have edited that little post 4 times and still I missed the mistake! Off to bed with me.

saffron seems to have been hinting in a way that reading Diamond is somewhat akin to the joy of slapping paint on walls--even if not as excruciating as watching it dry. Well, I agree. Although I give him a lot of points for thoroughness and patience, he tries ours! He's not a writer to excite; he's rather plodding in my view. But then again, so was Darwin, I guess.

DWill wrote:saffron seems to have been hinting in a way that reading Diamond is somewhat akin to the joy of slapping paint on walls--even if not as excruciating as watching it dry. Well, I agree. Although I give him a lot of points for thoroughness and patience, he tries ours! He's not a writer to excite; he's rather plodding in my view. But then again, so was Darwin, I guess.

Well, I'd say he's better at broad strokes of the brush than the fussy, careful work in the corners and he has to learn that its best not to keep painting over the same spot ...

giselle wrote:'kago' refers to material goods and technology, maybe the meaning could be stretched to include health care but that would be a stretch.

Drugs and clinics are cargo, health services are not. The Cargo Cult in Melanesia sees the provision of goods as a symbol of political power, demonstrating the patron-client relation between the big man and the ordinary people. There is something rather primitive and magical about the cargo cult, because it sometimes happens that people care less about whether a facility operates effectively than about the material transfer of goods. Australia provides a large quantity of free pharmaceuticals to PNG.

So, when we consider the world's have's and have-nots, I would argue that we have to consider the wider basket not just 'kago'. I think GGS does go some way toward seeing this wider basket but Diamond returns to Yali's question as the fundamental one he is answering, when I think in reality, Diamond is addressing a substantially wider question.

Yes, Diamond is talking about sustainable and effective development, whereas the cargo cult neglects the institutional and human factors that are essential for real progress. Money and goods are not sufficient to achieve development in the absence of wise strategic investment.

Guns are sometimes seen as the most important cargo. Hilaire Belloc had a famous poem in which he said the difference between Africans and Europeans was that European's had machine guns. This was a grossly simplistic, but all too common, misunderstanding. Machine guns only deliver development within a complex institutional framework. Too many Africans believed Belloc, with the sad results of kleptocracy and the violent corruption of power coming from the barrel of a gun.

Whatever happens, we have got The Maxim gun, and they have not.

giselle wrote:

DWill wrote:saffron seems to have been hinting in a way that reading Diamond is somewhat akin to the joy of slapping paint on walls--even if not as excruciating as watching it dry. Well, I agree. Although I give him a lot of points for thoroughness and patience, he tries ours! He's not a writer to excite; he's rather plodding in my view. But then again, so was Darwin, I guess.

Well, I'd say he's better at broad strokes of the brush than the fussy, careful work in the corners and he has to learn that its best not to keep painting over the same spot ...

to both of you!