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Part 1: Two Systems

#110: Sept. - Nov. 2012 (Non-Fiction)
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denisecummins
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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I sense a resistance to the study of human reasoning and decision-making in many of your comments, that studying such things scientifically somehow trivializes or debases them. We like to believe humans are wonderfully complex creatures whose behavior and choices are equally complex and unique and ineffable--and hence a mystery that cannot be understood through scientific means. In point of fact, it turns out we are not so mysterious, nor is our thinking as unique as we like to believe it to be. There is a high degree of agreement among people in terms of types of decisions made and justifications given in experimental psychology research. And we have learned an enormous amount about human nature, human strengths, and human weaknesses as a result.
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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I'm actually all for studying human reasoning and decision-making, and applaud the progress we've made. I believe free will is an illusion, and that the human mind operates in a fully mechanistic, causal fashion. Yet the complexity is so great that in studying the human mind, we're likely to make errors of every sort, and miss the nuances within our dynamic algorithms.

As far as the Princeton graduates, I see that as an honestly erroneous conclusion on their part. I mean no ill will, and I could certainly be wrong if I were to learn more about the experiments and the exact wording of their conclusion.



Speaking of in-group, out-group; it is a dichotomy, yes? I often wonder if the way we operate isn't instead more of a tiered valuation. Some categories have higher and higher value, ranging from a group of alien strangers on one hand, to the nuclear family on the other. I work at the YMCA. I have a sense of connection with employees from other YMCA's, but I value the co-workers at my own YMCA even more. Within my Y, I value other directors more than part time staff.

On the other hand, perhaps whatever mental process is invoked truly is binary. I remember pulling into a gas station and nearly hitting a truck that was backing up without brake lights. I was angry at the person until I saw that it was someone I knew. The transitional feeling in that moment was like a switch being flipped. Recognition followed by the desire to communicate. How strange that a few seconds earlier, my pulse was racing with the expectation of a conflict with a stranger.
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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Experiments are better, if controlled correctly. The experiment where people deliver shocks to subjects for answering incorrectly comes to mind. Where the voltage is incrementally increased until it's deadly. The shock was fake, but people still delivered it. I wonder if those who favor the value of 'authority' would on average deliver a higher maximum shock. Don't conservatives value 'authority' more than liberals?
We came to the conclusion (In my Psychology Class - O - level) that the deliverers wore white coats and so they felt empowered.

When we go into hospital, we revert to being child-like and do as we are told by those in white coats.

I expect the decision on whether to divert the trolley would depend on the victim's appearance to a large extent. If it was a very respectable looking elderly lady (I'm thinking Angela Lansbury in 'Murder She Wrote - a series so awful that I can't stop watching it as a piece of pastiche.) but if she looked like her and the five people were teenage hoodies, many people would let the trolley run into the boys. I'd definitely do the opposite as I'm all long skirts and boots and not the least respectable looking. 8)

But it is true that if you dress with a certain panache, you are treated more respectfully, than if you are a confrimed little old lady. I am a fairly gentle and placid person, I think, but I am hardly ever treated in a patronising manner. Or maybe I just don't notice what I don't want to notice. :D

Still, do we all agree that we feel better about an estate agent, for instance, coming into our homes if he is dressed in a respectable suit and tie rather than in a track suit and trainers? The one in the suit could be a complete numpty, but he is dressed appropriately.

O-Level btw., is the exam we used to sit after high school......Psychology was mostly all names and dates and physiology for nurses.....and I didn't pass. :blush: It is great to have one who knows what they're on about, denisecummins. Thanks.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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A propos old ladies - do watch his, it is very short, but very funny and I bet you don't watch it only once.

http://dave6.posterous.com/dont-honk-at-old-people

A mum was filming her son skateboarding, when she noticed this old lady.......
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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denisecummins
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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Too funny!
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Oh dear, don't read my posts if I'm getting on your nerves.

I've been thinking back, way back, about this. When I did the Psychology O-Levels, I was a committed Christian. I prayed about everything. My three kids, were taken care of, my husband....my whole family were laid out like a pack of picture cards in Patience (Solitaire, you call it) anyway, I did my best, and I prayed and I wasn't paranoid.

Now, when we did the Psychology thing about the torturers in white coats, I was absolutely sure, that I would never do that....because, a white coat wasn't important to me, this Jesus person was what mattered....He wouldn't have done it....so I KNOW, I wouldn't. I treated my doctor like another soul....I wasn't impressed with the status of his job....just the status of his soul, which, like mine, was that of a sinner, saved by grace alone.

Do you know....I think that was a rather healthier attitude than I have now. A tenth of my income went to the charities which came to my attention, so I didn't become perplexed about all the people deserving of help from me.

And, I have to say, I think I was happier then. It might have been a lie, and that makes me angry, and, I'm not unhappy now, but, I think I was happier then. Putting this Jesus person at the centre, having this man, not a God, not a philosophy, in the middle, never at the edges. It demanded everything of you, every aspect of your life. You couldn't put your denominatiion first, it had to be the spirit of that man.

This was hard for me to write.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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Your posts aren't getting on my nerves at all, Penelope! Sorry if I gave you that impression. I felt it important to share the info I know about the Milgram studies, and hopefully that has been useful. I respect your struggle, and it speaks well for you that you do struggle over issues of morality. Too many folks these days are solely focused on getting ahead at any cost and by any means.
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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the way i read the shock 'em to death experiment was that it was that they were being INSTRUCTED BY AUTHORITY to do it. some had immense qualms but most couldnt bring themselves to disobey and even as they heard the (fake) screams they reluctantly but obediently pushed the button.

once upon a time i might have too. these days i would grab the authority by the throat, frog march him into the room, attach the electrodes to his bollocks and on the way out leave something heavy on the switch whilst shouting in a VERY loud voice, how does it feel now motherfucker!!

only to laugh myself silly when i found out the whole thing was a charade. at which point i would aologise profusely to the poor actor in the white coat, hey, who knew!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdk9-zbk6XQ

i find that most people are submissive, like a child, they dont see themselves as THE authority.

like in the army, follow orders without question. like a child do what mummy says or you'll be in big trouble when daddy gets home.

i'm amazed to see 35 year old managers turn into 10 year old boys when their corporate overlord says jump.

i guess we spend the first 12-15 years or so of our lives totally dependant and often dont grow out of it until way too late, if at all, i know 60 year olds that still cannot assert themselves, especially when no rites aof passage are there and social conditioning says mummy knows best.

the church is the authoritay, submit to gawd
the bank is the authoritay, submit to financial rape
the govt is the authoritay, submit to the power as it throws you overboard and tramples you underfoot.
the professor is the authoritay, submit to their duff bs
the doctor is the authoritay, take the drugs
etc etc etc

well in the words of rage against the machine

fuck you, i wont do what you tell me. (unless I agree it's a good thing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7IUA8W8xuM

killing in the name of...

Poets priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no-one's jamming their transmission
'Cos when their eloquence escapes you
Their logic ties you up and rapes you
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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I will check this book out. I am always interested in all viewpoints.

Here is what I know from living day-to-day for sixty-one years. Much cannot be explained by science alone and while more breakthroughs are happening every day, there are still many things that may never be explained through science.

Intuition, at least for women, is very real. It took years of scientific research to learn what women already knew!!! Aren't women glad that they have been proven right?!!! They knew they would be someday!!! While men may have "gut feelings" (as do women of course), they are not intuition. That is not to say that women are clairvoyant or anything like that. There are just feelings that tell us to be aware something may be going to happen.

Yes, science has seen much physical evidence of how the brain functions. Although there is still much to learn, we are lucky to be living now when so much is known. Most doctors will agree that they do not have a solid understanding of all the workings of the brain, that it is work in progress. I started having panic attacks in the seventies and really no one believed they existed, even friends who were having them too. We simply did not know what was happening. How many illnesses can we say this about thru history? If science does not know about them, do they not exist?

Luckily they know more now. I and others like me are lucky there are strategies that offer help. Still more to learn. Like so many illnesses, there are no cures.

So the pure scientist says that our brains are just filled with physical parts such as veins and while yes they do have control over the motor activities and mental activities, science says that they know what the brain can and cannot do. This will, of course, be the final word on the brain!!! (Not likely!!) Is there really scientific knowledge that most humans use only one-tenth of their brain? If so that is pretty stunning. Who can teach us to use more? It could just be a rumor I heard somewhere.

We all know that there are numerous things that cannot be explained even today. Scientists all say "well while we can't explain that we are sure it has a scientific explanation." Riggghhhttt!!! They all do.

But that is not really true. Certainly weather is science and the factors that lead to it being a stormy or sunny day can be explained scientifically. But then why are meteorogists often wrong. It is just timing; it is bad meteorolgists, it is such and such. Weather patterns change, sometimes within minutes. Perhaps there are some factors that influence the weather that we are not yet aware of. Perhaps that butterfly in the Amazon changed directions abruptly.

Why can some people anticipate a visitor at the door or a phone call? We all know at least one person that does this. Do they have better hearing that we do? They can hear the sound coming through the phone line or steps up the street before others? It is just time for someone to visit and these people know it is time? They knew about this, but simply forgot?

We all shake our heads at stories of people who say they have been abducted by alien, and yes of course they are pretty hard to believe and the majority of us do not. That is the extreme.

But what is the deal with what we simply cannot explain? Those who truly have faith in a higher being, well they say it is ____'s will. Perhaps they are right. We will probably never know until we are too dead to relay the information back. Although remember in Arthur Conan Doyle's time, as well as today, some believe the dead can give us messages.

Science is great. We have historical proof. I sure would not want to be living in the Middle Ages and wander around not knowing that filth and fleas caused the Black Plague. Many who have access to the proper medicines work toward making it possible for everyone to have the same access. But remember how scientists who first began to talk about germs were scorned and ridiculed? Who would want to be alive before antibiotics!!!

We don't really know if some of the women (mostly women) who provided herbs to cure various ailments were right, except where science has studied them and has used these womens' knowledge to create healing medicines. Sadly at the time many were burned as witches. What people could not explain was just too scary and they needed to believe something really stupid to us today.

So many more examples of what used to be poppycock and is now science. Perhaps one day it all will be science. But there are those that doubt it. Quantum physics aside.
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Re: Part 1: Two Systems

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We all know that there are numerous things that cannot be explained even today. Scientists all say "well while we can't explain that we are sure it has a scientific explanation." Riggghhhttt!!! They all do.
There is a difference between explanation and prediction. For all those things that are as yet unexplained, how many millions of people have made up their own fantastical explanations? That is a trend going back centuries, and with each progression of science, more people are furious that someone drew back the curtain on their fantasies.

The answer, for those things that aren't yet explained... is that they aren't yet explained. There is no need to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors and wish for magic in the gaps.

Why can some people anticipate a visitor at the door or a phone call? We all know at least one person that does this. Do they have better hearing that we do? They can hear the sound coming through the phone line or steps up the street before others?
The amount of sense datum that reaches our conscious is a fraction of what our brain is processing at any given time. Most is unconscious, filtered, ignored. That is a sufficient explanation, but is by no means enough for prediction. For a prediction, we'd need to have ALL pertinent information within each scenario. If it's weather we're speaking of, that means every drop of humidity, every frog fart, etc. The inability to predict something doesn't mean we can't explain it.
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