Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:42 am





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 76 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Orwellian liberalism 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
DWill wrote:
You've said some confusing things lately about race and racism, ant. Now are you saying that statues of Confederate generals or slave owners have no connection to racism? Or is it simply the tearing down that you're against?



I said no such thing.. thanks for asking though.

I am against the indiscriminate tearing down of statues without first having a rational discussion about their historical context and what we can learn from each. I am against blind and mute barbarianism.

Are you against that suggestion or are you in favor of this type of leftist banana republic behavior?



Btw,

I will be responding to your earlier reply to me wherein you are toeing the line of accusing me of not reading the links I post.
It is almost condescending of you to imply that I am not



Last edited by ant on Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:14 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Beyond Genius

Silver Contributor

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 854
Location: Florida
Thanks: 356
Thanked: 506 times in 389 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
It’s very difficult to find an exact number, but from a perusal of Wikipedia I’m counting in the neighborhood of 50 statues, memorials, schools, buildings dedicated to the memory of Jefferson Davis, president of the confederate states. Does there have to be 50 rational discussions?.

I’ll grant that there should not be a banana republic destruction of the Jeff Davis presidential library, so I’d say.. change the name of the schools, rededicate the buildings under a new banner, and then move all other statues/memorials to the Jeff Davis presidential library. Then have an open memorial to a man so short cited that he could not comprehend the historical damage that he and other gloriously short cited losers had and would be responsible for.



The following user would like to thank Taylor for this post:
geo, Harry Marks
Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:20 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6728
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 2060
Thanked: 2310 times in 1744 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
DWill wrote:
You've said some confusing things lately about race and racism, ant. Now are you saying that statues of Confederate generals or slave owners have no connection to racism? Or is it simply the tearing down that you're against?



I said no such thing.. thanks for asking though.

No, you didn't say such a thing, but with the talk about Gandhi and Mohammed statues, it seemed natural to wonder what you think about the immediate matter at hand, in terms of statuary.
Quote:
I am against the indiscriminate tearing down of statues without first having a rational discussion about their historical context and what we can learn from each. I am against blind and mute barbarianism.

OK, but you still haven't answered the question. It's your right not to.
Quote:
Are you against that suggestion or are you in favor of this type of leftist banana republic behavior?

It's complicated, since blind and mute barbarism is also a big part of what the statues represent to people. ('Banana republic behavior' strikes the wrong note for me, just by the way). I'm not in favor of toppling statues, if by that we mean, would I be willing to participate in that act? I wouldn't be. But that doesn't quite settle the matter. I have little skin in the game; the oppression the statues signify wasn't directed against people like me. I wish they were never erected, but my regret isn't deeply felt. How would I feel if I had slave ancestry and I felt sure that "rational discussion" wasn't going to happen or if it did, wouldn't result in the removal of the images? It's very well known that African Americans find the statues threatening, but they're mostly still up. So what would discussion do?

In real life, I'll do about anything just to be able to get along with people, which I'm not always proud of, and not in this case especially. I haven't protested about the two Confederate statues in my town, a mile away, or written letters to the newspaper. After Floyd's killing, both were spray-painted. I didn't go around yelling, "Whoopee!"
Quote:
Btw,

I will be responding to your earlier reply to me wherein you are toeing the line of accusing me of not reading the links I post.
It is almost condescending of you to imply that I am not

You can take that off your list if you want. By "if we read a little carefully," I didn't mean to say you hadn't read the articles. You might have misinterpreted the intent of the writers, if I'm right in what I said.



The following user would like to thank DWill for this post:
geo
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:18 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Time for a random fact check.

This one exposes democratic/leftist historical illiteracy and shameless pandering to black people


Yes, Kente cloths were historically worn by empire involved in West African slave trade


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 345941002/



Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:48 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Abraham Lincoln statue burned:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/a ... ide/22120/



The leftist fascist movement continues.



Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:40 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Liberal anarchists make campaign add for Trump


George Washington statue toppled


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-was ... nd-oregon/


The broken corrupt and weak democratic party is allowing this.

its leaders are weak
its followers even weaker



Last edited by ant on Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:55 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Read Shakespeare before it was cool


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1638
Thanks: 1845
Thanked: 834 times in 671 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
Time for a random fact check.

Yes, Kente cloths were historically worn by empire involved in West African slave trade


I can tell you from direct personal experience that there is an ongoing process of facing the history of African slave traders, going on in West Africa today. We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags, which were emblems of fight for an oppressive system and have been used to this day as symbols of white nationalism and white supremacy.

I could name some uncomfortable aspects of sexism and authoritarianism that are more directly involved in kente weaving. History is heavily laced with the wrongs of the past, which I think is a lot of ant's point about pulling down statues. For the record, I am opposed to removing statues of figures who contributed to the nation in their own right, as opposed to those who fought to maintain slavery. A comment plaque or other added perspective might be appropriate.

Amherst College is trying to change the name of the mascot (their teams are the "Lord Jeffs" for Lord Jeffrey Amherst) because he is most widely known for intentionally introducing smallpox to Native American communities. It is amazing to me, shocking even, that many Amherst alumni are fighting to keep their little terrorist in his position of honor.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:38 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,



No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.


The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.



The following user would like to thank ant for this post:
Harry Marks
Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:48 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Read Shakespeare before it was cool


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1638
Thanks: 1845
Thanked: 834 times in 671 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
geo wrote:
Most of our Confederate monuments are essentially propaganda anyway. They were erected in the 1910s-1950s during a resurgence of race riots and civil unrest in our country and while some states were expanding Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans. I don't really see removal of these monuments as "air-brushing" history (nor an egregious offense against humankind).


Or, to put it another way, since the statues were themselves an effort to airbrush history, is it not just as wrong to leave them as to tear them down? And since the revisionist narrative behind the statues was integral to a movement to oppress African-Americans, I would say they are indefensible. Put them in museums, or statuary parks.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:52 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Read Shakespeare before it was cool


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1638
Thanks: 1845
Thanked: 834 times in 671 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,


No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.

The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were so confusing them. I meant to head off any interpretations in that direction. I apologize for the appearance of a strawman attack - I could have been clearer about avoiding it.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:55 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Harry Marks wrote:
ant wrote:
Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,


No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.

The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were so confusing them. I meant to head off any interpretations in that direction. I apologize for the appearance of a strawman attack - I could have been clearer about avoiding it.



No, Harry.. you're more intelligent than that.

You know what you did. And I know what your intent was.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Read Shakespeare before it was cool


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1638
Thanks: 1845
Thanked: 834 times in 671 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
No, Harry.. you're more intelligent than that.

You know what you did. And I know what your intent was.

Umm, really? I lived in West Africa for a while. I have several items of kente cloth in my house. I am interested in this stuff.

The cited article made some efforts to put things in perspective. I made some more. I don't really know why you posted the "random fact check" but I was interested in heading off one possible implication. If you want to see that as an attack, that is your privilege, but it doesn't put you in a good light. Kind of a "protests too much" position.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:11 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Quote:
If you want to see that as an attack


Who said I saw it as an attack? Why are getting jumpy about this?


The kente apparel worn by Pelosi and her democratic thugs was a pandering ploy to win favor..
It was also a very dumb choice because historically the people that fashioned that clothe also had skeletons in their closet related to the immoral practice of slavery.. The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.


One thing you were attempting to do was put lipstick on a pig.



It's nice that you once lived in West Africa.. I'm am sure there are racists there too.



The following user would like to thank ant for this post:
Harry Marks
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:20 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Read Shakespeare before it was cool


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1638
Thanks: 1845
Thanked: 834 times in 671 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
Quote:
If you want to see that as an attack


Who said I saw it as an attack? Why are getting jumpy about this?
Okay, I stand corrected. "Strawman attack" was my phrase. But "strawman" was yours, and attack is the usual implication, so you could maybe see how I jumped to that conclusion.

ant wrote:
The kente apparel worn by Pelosi and her democratic thugs was a pandering ploy to win favor..
One person's pandering is another person's politicking. I am fine with using a variety of symbolism to express solidarity with constituents, and I see nothing wrong with using kente cloth. My church choir wears kente stoles regularly, and nobody sees anything debased about it. At least, not that I know of.

ant wrote:
It was also a very dumb choice because historically the people that fashioned that clothe also had skeletons in their closet related to the immoral practice of slavery.. The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
I disagree. Now, if the Dem leadership had been advocating taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington at the same time, I would see some irony. If they were trying to expunge every possible taint of America's original sin, then yes, I could understand why kente cloth could be subject to the same treatment. But I don't think that was the case.

Is the British Union Jack a racist symbol? The British wealth that won wars in the 18th and 19th century was built on slave labor in the West Indies and on exploitation of India. So nobody meeting with the Brits should allow the Union Jack to be flown? I just don't see it.

The Ashante Empire was an empire. It dominated others, and it participated in the wealth-building atrocity of capturing and selling other people as slaves. Much of the wealth of the Middle East before oil was also gained from slave trading. Honesty, yes, I am in favor of honesty. Irony? In the eye of the beholder, I guess.

ant wrote:
One thing you were attempting to do was put lipstick on a pig.
Well, again, I don't see it. If someone hires a mariachi band to play at a rally in Arizona or California, I don't think it is pandering. If they play Gloria Estefan tunes in Miami, that just makes sense. And if they play polka music in Milwaukee, people don't get pushed out of shape about it. No matter what terrible things the Polish ruling class may have done.

ant wrote:
It's nice that you once lived in West Africa.. I'm am sure there are racists there too.
You think? The assumption of white privilege is so strong there that it got tiresome, even to me, the beneficiary. But I also learned a few things about its visibility to ordinary Africans and possible invisibility to ex-pats. In short, it's all about the money.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 5929
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 973 times in 838 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
You are apologetically civil in this thread but talk about how family members of mine should be "sick" of something I've said in another?


You are a blazing hypocrite, Harry.

Forget COVID19 restrictions and go to church.



Last edited by ant on Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:19 pm
Profile Email
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 76 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Community Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Book Discussion Leaders

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
Banned Books
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Coming Soon!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Coming Soon!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
Promote your FICTION book
Promote your NON-FICTION book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank