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Nothing Fails Like Prayer - by Massimo Pigliucci

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Frank 013
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Re: Prayer for Failures

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DHI am only speaking for myself, I have seen death, I have had close friends, relitives, pets die, I have seen people killed and I have even been the cause of death for some. Grief of the loss of a loved one is there with or without prayer. the support of loved ones and friends, religous or not, is comforting. I find it amazing that religous people can't seem to believe that without a god figure in our lives we can still be supportive and compationate.Plenty of studies have been done on the subject of prayer. the results of the one above seem to be the general conclusion. Meditation has the same stress reliving effects as prayer, and that is (from what I have read) the only true benifit of prayer.Later.
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Frank 013
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Re: Prayer for Failures

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DHI should not have to "show you". The fact that there are emotionally happy healthy athiests out here in the world is proof that Prayer is not needed. Furthermore you have not shown how Prayer is any better than a simple hug and some supportive words from a close friend or loved one. You keep listing a whole bunch of Prayer effects like healing, and bonding, but these are not prayer effects, these are the effects of people who care for one another. Prayer is not needed for careing.Later Edited by: Frank 013 at: 5/7/06 10:39 am
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Prayer

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Quote:The congregations were told they could pray in their own ways, but were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications." Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.www.iht.com/articles/2006...s/pray.phpThe first paragraph addresses concerns that prayer was somehow limited for purposes of the study. The results of this study were anticipated for a long time because the leader of the study is a well known advocate of meditation and relaxation plus most of the money came from "the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000." I disagree this is a waste of money. There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence that prayer is effective - this should be examined. It appears the effect is too weak to be measured.
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Re: Prayer

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Quote:The congregations were told they could pray in their own ways, but were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."I think this points out a crucial flaw in the experiment, and that involves misunderstanding the larger context in which prayer takes place. Prayer is one part of a whole system of contact and care: a network of relationships that provide assitance and performs tasks. Prayer, in many cases, is the glue that holds it all together, providing focus and direction for all of the separate players within the network. Simply reducing prayer to asking God to take care of everything is misunderstanding prayer and God. As I see it, the bonding together of relationships as acts of solidarity and service through prayer is a key element of how God gets involved. Likewise, many prayers are not about asking God to change things, but helping persons live with what can't be changed: to learn acceptance in the face of inescapable hardship. Folks in 12 Step programs have captured this essence in their Serenity Prayer:Quote:God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.Thus, it's not simply resignation, but an active engagement with life on life's terms: seeking the best thinking possible, free of delusion and denial, and the will to do the right thing.And, there is a faith that the force that continues to bring life out of death is a power that cares, listens, is willing to form relationships and bond with those who seek it out: Prayer is one way to engage that kind of seeking. Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 5/8/06 12:28 pm
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Re: Prayer for Failures

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Frank: The fact that there are emotionally happy healthy athiests out here in the world is proof that Prayer is not needed.Could you describe the experiment you undertook to reach this conclusion? How does emotionally happy and healthy atheists prove anything about Prayer? Does that mean the existence of desperate, despairing, emotionally stunted and depressed Atheists proves that Prayer is needed?Frank: Furthermore you have not shown how Prayer is any better than a simple hug and some supportive words from a close friend or loved one.I haven't tried to show Prayer as better than anything. I've tried to show the different ways that Prayer is actually used and how that use plays out in the healing and recovery of patients and their loved ones. I think it shows itself to be more complex, multifaceted, and covering more bases than simply a hug and a few supprotive words...even if it includes those things as well.Frank: You keep listing a whole bunch of Prayer effects like healing, and bonding, but these are not prayer effects, these are the effects of people who care for one another.And Prayer is one way they express this care, engage in activities that show this care, and help them to find a common language to communicate this care. Prayer is a multifaceted tachnique for bringing people together to express care, consideration, commitment and love for each other...all of which are crucial in any healing process.THUS, showing how the initial post is severely flawed, as is your point that Prayer is illegitimate.
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Re: Prayer for Failures

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Quote:Frank: You keep listing a whole bunch of Prayer effects like healing, and bonding, but these are not prayer effects, these are the effects of people who care for one another.I agree.In early Spring of 1990 my husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He died late Summer of that same year.Part of my healing came because, while he was still alive, we talked about everything, including.... Was he afraid? Did he have a 'sense' of when he would die? How would I 'go on' after he died? (as well as other down and dirty topics).There are no prayers necessary when people can have honest, in depth and heartfelt discussions between themselves. Prayer (for us) would have gotten in the way.We had a great celebration of his life a few days after his death and I witnessed lots of bonding taking place!My 2 cents as one who's been there. "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."~ George Orwell
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Re: Prayer for Failures

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Wow, thanks for sharing that. And what does your banner mean? Is that an acronym for something?
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