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No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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stahrwe

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No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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Last edited by stahrwe on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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what total lack of evidence, the whole bible from start to finish is chock full of mythology!

the bible IS the evidence.
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DWill

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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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The very hard to swallow aspect of mythicism is not that mythology got mixed in with Jesus--I think it did--but that Jesus isn't even really held to be a historical figure by the Gospel writers or even Paul. All of it is written in code or something, is astrotheological allegory, or the plain narratives are a sop to the literalist massses, while the real meaning is there for the knowing to know.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
Examples of esoteric religious movements and philosophies include Alchemy, Anthroposophy, Astrology, early Christian mysticism,[5] The Fourth Way, Tantra, Freemasonry, Gnosticism, Hermetism, Mahavidya, Vamachara, Kabbalah, Magic, Mesmerism, Neoplatonism, Numerology, Perennialism, Rosicrucianism, Scientology, Sufism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Taoism, the Alawites,[6] the Theosophy of Jacob Böhme and his followers, and the Theosophist movement associated with Helena Blavatsky.

Although esotericism refers to an exploration of the hidden meanings and symbolism in various philosophical, historical, and religious texts, the texts themselves are often central to mainstream religions. For example, the Bible and the Torah are considered esoteric material.[7]
you dont think moby dick was about a whale do you :-D

the wizard of oz has a whole nother layer to it.
Last edited by youkrst on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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while the real meaning is there for the knowing to know.
"paul"
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

But [f]a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually [g]appraised.
"jesus"
he that has ears to hear let him hear

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


that all looks like gnostic esotericism to me.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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Mat 13:11 note 4
tn Grk “the mysteries.”
sn The key term 'secrets' (μυστήριον, musthrion) can mean either (1) a new revelation or (2) a revealing interpretation of existing revelation as in Dan 2:17-23, 27-30. Jesus seems to be explaining how current events develop old promises, since the NT consistently links the events of Jesus’ ministry and message with old promises (Rom 1:1-4; Heb 1:1-2). The traditional translation of this word, “mystery,” is misleading to the modern English reader because it suggests a secret which people have tried to uncover but which they have failed to understand (L&N 28.77).

net Bible online Matthew 13:11
Some effort is involved in Bible understanding. It's easy to claim special knowledge like the Gnostics do, it takes work to research the questions.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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remember this thread S?

http://www.booktalk.org/was-the-new-tes ... hilit=nash
youkrst wrote:i thought it might be interesting, and revealing, to go through the initial basic traits of the mystery religions as listed by Ronald Nash (author of original article cited by stahrwe) and follow it directly with a new testament scripture thereby allowing the reader to decide for themselves if the parallels are or are not striking.


(1) Central to each mystery was its use of an annual vegetation cycle in which life is renewed each spring and dies each fall. Followers of the mystery cults found deep symbolic significance in the natural processes of growth, death, decay, and rebirth.



Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


(2) As noted above, each cult made important use of secret ceremonies or mysteries, often in connection with an initiation rite. Each mystery religion also passed on a "secret" to the initiate that included information about the life of the cult's god or goddess and how humans might achieve unity with that deity. This "knowledge" was always a secret or esoteric knowledge, unattainable by any outside the circle of the cult.




Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


(3) Each mystery also centered around a myth in which the deity either returned to life after death or else triumphed over his enemies. Implicit in the myth was the theme of redemption from everything earthly and temporal. The secret meaning of the cult and its accompanying myth was expressed in a "sacramental drama" that appealed largely to the feelings and emotions of the initiates. This religious ecstasy was supposed to lead them to think they were experiencing the beginning of a new life.




Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

for point four i will use a slightly different approach (comments in italics)



(4) The mysteries had little or no use for doctrine and correct belief. (what? correct beliefs like the church has, eternal literal hell anyone?) They were primarily concerned with the emotional life of their followers. The cults used many different means to affect the emotions and imaginations of initiates (not like the church, much) and hence bring about "union with the god": processions, fasting (jesus said when you fast...) , a play, acts of purification, blazing lights (churches have pretty good lighting rigs these days), and esoteric liturgies (nothing churchy about all this?) . This lack of any emphasis on correct belief marked an important difference between the mysteries and Christianity. The Christian faith was exclusivistic in the sense that it recognized only one legitimate path to God and salvation, Jesus Christ. The mysteries were inclusivistic in the sense that nothing prevented a believer in one cult from following other mysteries.(one up to the mysteries i'd say)





(5) The immediate goal of the initiates was a mystical experience that led them to feel they had achieved union with their god. Beyond this quest for mystical union were two more ultimate goals: some kind of redemption or salvation, and immortality.




union with god

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

some kind of redemption or salvation

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

and immortality.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

so there we have it line 'em up and see if it's a fit, you decide.
then as you read on from that post the mystery connection just intensifies.

christianity is so like a mystery religion. the dna evidence is strong. like chimps and humans.
Last edited by youkrst on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DWill

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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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youkrst wrote: that all looks like gnostic esotericism to me.
Which makes me wonder: why do we need to think that there existed, separately, gnosticism or esotericism and orthodoxy--mutually exclusive categories? Couldn't the presence in the Bible of the elements you cite be evidence that at the time there wasn't anything particularly controversial about "inner knowledge"? It doesn't seem, in any case, that these things are evidence of a true original nature of Christianity, which was later erased except for these traces.

Yes, Iraneus used the pejorative label "gnostic" about other Christian groups and labeled them heretics. But these passages we now say have gnostic flavor would presumably not be in the Bible if they were heretical.
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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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Well the thing I don't like at all is the suppression of the truth.

Imagine if you could be considered satanic for daring to suggest that moby dick was clearly more than a story about a whale, something that should be evident to anyone who knows the story.

Imagine if your family were threatened on pain of ostracism to stop speaking with you because you dared to suggest that animal farm wasn't really about a farm.

2 John 1:10
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

Imagine being told the lunatics have taken over the asylum those that didn't even understand the childish basics of their own scriptures telling you satan has blinded you and you are an antichrist a deceiver when in fact they themselves are the pseudo Christ.

It must be like being born in America and being told if you disagree with the foreign policy that is being carried out in your name well you can just get out and go and live with the commie scum you admire so much.

Fascist totalitarian takeover.

A jackboot on a human face.

And all this from morons who are as ignorant as the day is long and proud of it.
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stahrwe

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Re: No Evidence that Jesus was a Myth

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DWill, instead of listening to me, or even the wind, I suggest History of Christianity pages 338-344.
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