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Michael Moore hates America!

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Chris OConnor

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Re: Watch it first!

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LanDroidWhy do you suppose Moore made a point about that phone number for reporting abuses of the Patriot Act NOT being an "800" number? He knows there is no difference between an 800 and an 877 number. He purposely tricked the audience, right?And no I haven't seen the movie. I won't pay to see this movie, thereby contributing to Moore's wealth and ability to continue his deceptive behavior, but will eventually see it. Do we have to see every movie to be able to comment on it? The Senator AGREED to circulate the petition to members of congress. Why didn't Moore include this offer to help Moore? Moore was trying to make the Senator look bad...and playing the next few seconds of the video would have made the Senator look good. Correct? Surely you agree that the Senator's words would have improved his standings with the liberal side had they been a part of the movie, but Moore wouldnt allow this. What about Condoleeza Rices words being out of context? Did I have to see the movie to detect deception with this one?Chris "For Every Winner, There Are Dozens Of Losers. Odds Are You're One Of Them"
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Chris OConnor

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Re: Watch it first!

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Let me add some fuel to the fire though....I do feel as if Islam is a barbaric religion and culture. The real problem right now is Islam. Not "extremist Islam," but Islam as a whole.Should we nuke the Islamic world? Yes, we should bomb the hell out of the Islamic people of the world. But not with nuclear weapons. No, we should carpet bomb them with information. Islam's barbaric nature stems from ignorance. Information is the cure for ignorance.Now, if I was a public figure that Moore wanted to attack, he would have a field day with my last little paragraph. Moore would include part of my message in his movie...Should we nuke the Islamic world? Yes, we should bomb the Islamic people of the world.And then omit....With nuclear weapons? No, we should carpet bomb them with information. Islam's barbaric nature stems from ignorance. Information is the cure for ignorance.Just as he twisted the meaning of what Condoleeza Rice said, he would do the same to me. This is why I have no respect for Michael Moore. He takes advantage of his audience, whom he considers too damn stupid to figure it out. Are you going to allow yourself to be duped?Some of you will wonder why we should impose western culture on the Islamic world. Maybe because we don't have football stadiums devoted to executions? Sometimes I wonder if some people just like to argue, and don't even research the topics they take a stand against. Or they completely tune out whatever doesn't sit well with them. Ae you one of the people that thinks the Al Quaeda beheadings are simply an expression of their desire for freedom? Or is there a deeper problem with the Islamic culture that has completely desensitized them to murder? And please don't tell me that the US brought this upon itself. The Islamic world has been behaving barbarically long before interactions with the west. Do you think chopping off peoples heads, hands, fingers, sexual organs, tongues, and feet is a reaction to the west?Now you want to mention how these tactics were used throughout Europe and even in the US? Oh please. Where these were used they were eventually discontinued as the cultures became civilized. Islam, by means of the Quran, is NOT on the way towards civilization. They are stagnant, and possibly regressing.Why should we impose western culture on the Muslims of the world? We shouldn't. We should expose them to it, as this is all that it will take for them to want a taste of it.But why?Because Islam is a dangerous religion that preaches hatred, violence and oppression. If you don't believe this lets discuss it using some sources and documentation.Muslims hate you and want to kill you.Chris "For Every Winner, There Are Dozens Of Losers. Odds Are You're One Of Them"Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 7/8/04 11:48 am
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Re: Watch it first!

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When was the toll free line installed? Isn't it possible that it was set up just as the movie came out so Moore's statement was true at the time he made the film? I agree with others that one should see a movie before reviewing it. One reason is you are merely regurgitating the opinions of others, not offering any of your own. Another reason to see the movie before reviewing is by removing the context you miss how literally chicken-shit some of the objections are. Take the phone number thing - a huge concern over the use of the Patriot act is ignored and reduced to whether or not a certain person has a toll free telephone line. Another example is the Senator and his nephew. Again, Moore is concerned with the children of congressmen, not nephews and so it's not relevant. If you had seen the movie you would know that Moore DID show one senator who agreed to spread military propaganda to encourage other senators to send their children to Iraq. But all of that ignores the much larger story that Moore's confrontations with congressmen was illustrating (which I will not reveal since you're not interested in the movie). Instead the controversy is reduced to editing - one encounter that was left out of the film, which may or may not have even occurred. In both the phone number and the nephew critiques, the real issue is ignored and not discussed, and a chicken-shit putative factoid is substituted and elevated to a credibility crisis.As to Moore hating America, it looks like most of those quotes are expressing anger over Democrats and others not doing what he would like them to do. I don't see that as hating America. If you want to see real hatred, read the full title of Sean Hannity's new book. It's obvious he hates half of America, but I'm not sure that means he hates America. Or take Booktalk when we list statistics saying 90% of Americans believe in an immortal soul and laugh at the stupidity of the citizenry. Does that mean atheists hate America? No. Do Christians believe atheists hate America? Yes, and that laughter is all the proof they need. Edited by: LanDroid at: 7/8/04 11:57 am
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Re: Watch it first!

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Quote:Probably because Bush appeared arrogant and attacked Iraq without UN support or consent. I do think the UN was acting VERY passive in the time leading up to our attack on Iraq, but Bush had no business attacking Iraq without UN consent. Bush attacked because he needed a tangible enemy.My opinion is we need a world body like the UN to level the playing field and insure that no individual nation behaves as an empire imposing their will on the rest of the world. We didn't handle ourselves properly and now we're paying the price.There were many more reasonable targets than Iraq. Saudi produced almost all of the terrorists, yet they remain an ally. How odd. Everytime I see those two buildings collapse, burying 3000 innocent lives, I see the faces of those Saudi terrorists at the yoke. But should we have attacked Saudi Arabia? I didn't say that.You summed up the sentiment well. This is why Moore can do what he does, it was sanctioned as sound tactic by Bush. Facts are not necessary, just swaying public opinion. As an extension of this, any nation can now pre-emptively strike any other if they feel the slightest reason to do so. Danger!But Bush will say that he had all the authorization he needed from the UN. By spinning past resolutions and the unanimous vote he got right before the war. He wanted them to be a rubber stamp, which is why the UN was so 'passive'. Who wants to be treated that way?I have said this somewhere else, I say again that conversation is more than verbal. Bush, Rice, Cheney and the rest may say that they never tied Iraq to Al-Qaeda directly, but the implication was there. If you examine all their words, you can make the case that they never said this or that, but the implication was there. Sort of like Moore not lying, but presenting evidence that he sees fit to present. Moore is a filmmaker, Bush is a President...big difference.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
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Re: Watch it first!

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Quote:Because Islam is a dangerous religion that preaches hatred, violence and oppression. If you don't believe this lets discuss it using some sources and documentation.All religions have the propensity to promote hate. On the whole, it is the extremist minority that actually perpertrates the hate.I am going to suggest one of two books for a future discussion:"When Religion Becomes Evil" - By Charles Kimball"Terror in the Mind of God" - By Mark JuergensmeyerI have read the first and plan on reading the second.Islam is not a bad religion, at least not any more than I normally think religion is bad. Islam actually incorporates Judaism and Christianity. The terror inflicted by the misguided adherents to this religion is no different than the Crusaders, the Inquisitors and the Witch burners. They are no different than those fundamentalist bible beaters that claim creation was a six day process or that the earth is flat.The degree that they go to may seem more extreme than the latter, but the basic defect is the same: Belief overtakes reality.We are off topic again. Should we start another thread?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
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Re: Watch it first!

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Quote:If you don't believe this lets discuss it using some sources and documentation.I posted a new topic about this: Islam: Sheep in Wolf's Clothing?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
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Re: Watch it first!

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Yes, a new topic thread is a good idea.Chris "For Every Winner, There Are Dozens Of Losers. Odds Are You're One Of Them"
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The Facts in Fahrenheit 911

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Here's a link to Michael Moore's website for his film, Fahrenheit 911. From this starting page you'll find a link to a section titled The Facts in Fahrenheit 911.There are six sections that direct you through the entire course of the film addressing each fact presented along the way. Each fact is corroborated with a source.Watch the film, then review the fact list, then survey the critics...both from the Right and Left.Michael Moore doesn't hate America.
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Re: Fahrenheit 911

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I have finally gotten around to watching the movie. I am now ready to give my opinion of it. I would like to start with giving my thoughts on the 3 parts that Chris brought up about it.1. I barely noticed Condi's statement. It was sandwiched into a montage of several sound bites of Bush administration officials saying similar things. Was hers the only one taken out of context? Overall, it is a weak argument against the movie. It was an extremely minor part of the whole thing. 2. I don't remember ANY phone numbers being flashed on the screen. I might have just missed it (I was so bored with the movie that I was crocheting) or it might not have been there since I was watching an "unofficial" version of the movie. I plan on watching it again to see if I can catch this part, but I don't know if I would actually be able to put up with the boredom of watching it a second time. I probably will because I want to know if the narration says that there is no 800 number because it has occurred to me that Moore might be GIVING the audience the number so they can call it to report abuses of the Patriot Act. If I bother I will report back. 3. What exactly are you claiming Moore didn't include about the recruiting part? Moore did include footage of one of the politicians agreeing to hand out recruiting pamphlets, but I'm not sure which person it was and I don't remember if the nephew was mentioned or not. I thought he was, but I don't trust my memory. That is another part I will watch for if I watch it again.Before I give my overall opinion, I would like to state for the record that I am a fan of Michael Moore's previous movies and TV shows and I deeply dislike G. W. Bush. Here we go: I did not like this movie. My husband even said that it made him want to vote for Bush. There were things in the movie that make Bush look bad, like the part where Bush calls the "haves" and the "have mores" his base in a fundraising dinner, but this movie looked like a hack job by a jerk with a grudge. Moore's attempts to pull at my heartstrings with the sob story of someone who's son died in Iraq just made me think she was a stupid woman who doesn't understand that there is more to the military than college money. Moore's attempts to make Bush look like a conniving rich man with connections with other rich people made me think of John Kerry's marriage to the heiress of the Heinz ketchup fortune. Any member of congress who had his connections checked into like this would yield the same results. I lean a little left, and I was completely unimpressed with the case made in Fahrenheit 911. I'm not even sure anymore what exactly the case was supposed to claim. I think it was just too much stuff without much of a point other than trying to point a finger at Bush. For me, it was like watching clips of information that I already knew with someone saying aloud thoughts that had already run through my head. I didn't convince myself that Bush for sure has evil money-making intentions (I think he's only as evil as the other choices, I don't like him because he sounds like an idiot to boot) and Moore didn't convince me either. I think Moore would have done better to choose one thing out of the many that he tried to include and done a thorough job of investigating it. Most of all, I don't think this movie is anywhere near as good as it should have been in order to win the top prize at Cannes. But then, I wasn't asked to judge, so I guess I wouldn't know that. Can someone explain to me why it should bother me that Bush finished reading that book with those kids? The first plane had already struck before he entered the classroom. He knew there was a terrorist attack, and he knew that the military was already in motion. Upon hearing about the second plane, not much changes from the first. I could understand criticizing him for going in, but not for staying in when everything is already in motion. Besides, if I were a 7 year old kid and all of a sudden the President of the U.S. jumped up and ran out of my classroom, I think I would be scarred for life. And I was irked about the false reports of "real time." I read several accounts about all seven minutes being played, but they were not. The clock jumped to the next minute every couple of seconds. Edited by: scrumfish at: 7/13/04 1:22 am
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Re: Fahrenheit 911

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Scrumfish:Thank you so much for your thoughtful post.I would just like to state for the record that I have talked with my brother about BookTalk in general, and about this thread in particular. I told him I would not engage in debates here. However, one thing in your post demanded that I respond.Quote:There were things in the movie that make Bush look bad, like the part where Bush calls the "haves" and the "have mores" his base in a fundraising dinnerActually, this wasn't a fundraising dinner - although Mr. Moore would like you think it was. It was really a charity event where speakers were expected to poke fun at themselves.Detailed information can be found here. Quote:Another Bush joke is presented as an obvious joke, although important context is missing. Near the end of the movie, Bush speaks to a tuxedoed audience. He says, "I call you the haves and the have-mores. Some call you the elite; I call you my base." The joke follows several segments in which Bush is accused of having started the Iraq war in order to enrich business. As far the movie audience can tell, Bush is speaking to some unknown group of rich people. The speech actually comes from the October 19, 2000, Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner. The 2000 event was the 55th annual dinner, which raises money for Catholic hospital charities in New York City. Candidates Bush and Gore were the co-guests of honor at the event, where speakers traditionally make fun of themselves.Gore joked, "The Al Smith Dinner represents a hallowed and important tradition, which I actually did invent." Lampooning his promise to put Social Security in a "lock box," Gore promised that he would put "Medicare in a walk-in closet," put NASA funding in a "hermetically sealed Ziploc bag" and would "always keep lettuce in the crisper." Mary Ann Poust, "Presidential hopefuls Gore and Bush mix humor and politics at Al Smith Dinner," Catholic New York, Oct. 26, 2000. So although Fahrenheit presents the joke as epitomizing Bush's selfishness, the joke really was part of Bush helping to raise $1.6 million for medical care for the poor. Although many a truth is said in jest, Bush's joke was no more revealing than was Gore's claim to have founded the dinner in 1946, two years before he was born.My point here is that almost everthing that Moore does in this movie is deceptive in the extreme. If you want to accept whatever Moore says on blind faith alone, go ahead. That is your right. However, you really should stop being critical of the Christians, Jews and Muslims who all seen to share your penchant for a lack in critical thinking. On the other hand, if your brain is plugged in and ready for use, please think just as critically of the nutty ideas that support things you believe in as those that do not. Micheal Moore is not worthy of anybody who considers themselves a freethinker. Indeed, he is anathma to the very ideas you champion.Intellectual dishonesty and/or intellectual laziness should never become the tool or execuse for those that consider themselves truly deep thinkers.Tim O'Connor
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