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Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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etudiant
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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I agree with you that some of the extreme political ideas expressed in recent years can be tiring. I am really amazed that many of these arguments such as taxation and the rights of governments vs. the individual, and similar persist in the US.

You gave the example of a cheetah, Chris. It is of course a predator that makes its way by killing those weaker than itself, often the very young or injured, until it encounters an animal that happens to be stronger than itself, when it is then itself killed. Not a bad comparison to capitalism I guess, but certainly not the way I would choose to organize a society.

I must admit that I read you incorrectly at first when you made the point of the 50% of people who do not pay taxes. I thought you were about to discuss all the businessmen that have moved their head office overseas, to places like Dubai or the Bahamas, in order to avoid paying tax, while at the same time demanding all the rights of US citizenship. Or perhaps the affluent who hire teams of tax lawyers to find any and every loophole to get them out of paying. Or those who park their money in Swiss bank accounts. That half.

As to the other 50%, well I am not going to make any claims about tax laws, that’s certainly not something I know a whole lot about. But whether you pay a little more than those in Canada or in Europe, or a little less, (and from my limited knowledge you are about in the middle) I think there are some broader points to be made.

What I see when I read about anger generated from taxation are people making some underlying assumptions. This is quite reasonable; all our opinions must come from some set of beliefs.

First of all, lets look at income. It’s reasonable to expect that those that contribute to society should be paid, and more so for those that do more. But what constitutes value or fair remuneration is highly subjective. Many factors go in to the makeup of prices and wages, some of which the individual has some control over, and some that he definitely does not. Many Chinese factory workers make somewhere’s around $100/ per month for toiling 12 hour days. My guess is that they do not think this particularly fair, as there have been some protests and even riots over this. But they are small cogs in a very large machine, who I am sure are just trying to survive.

In this part of the world, a plumber will probably charge around $100/hr for fixing your pipes. So how much does he deserve? In Canada, he has probably got his ticket through a college program, supported in part by the taxpayer. Maybe he took out a student loan, again supported in part by the taxpayer. They are not really busting their ass for the money they get; it’s just that this is what has become accepted as normal. And yes, you can make the argument that one should just let the market decide, and those rates will come down. But the market is a blunt and inefficient instrument, and does not work without monitoring, adjustment, and regulation from someone who is at least somewhat accountable to the public. The recent financial meltdown provides ample evidence for us here. Plumbers charge what they charge because they know what other plumbers charge. In this sense there is no market, as there is not in other circumstances.

The public sector can be just as extreme. A local magazine here recently released the salaries of those working in city government. There were 75 making over $100k a year. These are middle managers in a city of 81,000. I would be willing to bet my much smaller salary that none of them bust their ass by any conceivable definition.

I have no sympathy for the “entrepreneur”that makes a killing selling electric letter openers, and then bleats because he is expected to pay tax on his winnings. Or for the real estate agent that makes a tidy profit through sharp practice, perhaps cutting into some families retirement plan, even if he is working within the framework of the law, and then whines and complains that he is required to pay taxes on it. These are examples of people who contribute nothing to society, yet feel a sense of entitlement and even resentment at having to contribute anything at all to their community. In short, people get what they get. Sometimes they deserve it, in other cases they do not.

So how much should people have to pay in tax on all the money they have “earned”? This brings up another underlying belief I think. It goes something like this: most of what goes in taxes is pretty much wasted. Bureaucracies tend to be inefficient, and also a lot of money is just handed out in welfare plans. Yes there can certainly be an organizational culture of waste, no doubt, although from my experience it is probably less than most think, overall. But the point is that inefficiency and incompetence are human traits, and carry over quite nicely into private business. If a civil servant is incompetent, he is not going to achieve instant enlightenment by taking a post in the private sector. Those that run private corporations can be wildly greedy, bungling, ineffectual, and act at variance with the public interest. Just look at outfits like Enron.

For most, except the very rich, the services obtained through taxes would have to be paid for one way or another, through a private or public scheme. There is no guarantee that you will have a better manager for said service either way. If it is public, at least there is some accountability; in that there will at least be an election. If it is private, there is less accountability, plus someone is going to want to make a profit, on top of any other costs of doing business.

I am a little surprised by your energy around the tax monies going into social programs. The US probably spends less on these types of things than any other advanced industrial country in the world. Certainly there is always a small minority that will take advantage of any situation, and manipulate it for their own gain. But it has been my experience, and I have worked in this field, that most who end up taking benefits from programs like welfare or disability pensions, or what have you, don’t really like to, but have ended up where they are for a number of reasons. It is easy to say, just go out and get a job, but we live in an economy that is not designed to necessarily give everyone a job, much less one that is meaningful or that pays a living wage. I also think there is a perception that much more money goes to these types of programs than actually does. In BC, direct payments such as welfare comprise a tiny, tiny portion of the budget.

When considering these types of support payments, I am amused when those who become apoplectic over payments to individuals seem to be ok with much more massive bailouts of big business when corporate CEOs mess up. Someone messes up their own life, and is given a few hundred bucks; and a corporate manager screws up their company and is supported by millions from tax revenue (and of course they still get their bonus). Nope, that’s not the way I would do things.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." - Karl Marx

I've always liked this quote, and pondered it.

The rich would not be rich without the lower echelons and also the societal structure that allows them profit. Though they earn more, they also owe more, for the systems that allow them to be elevated to live like kings. Those poor lazy people on welfare who have an entitlement philosophy need to contribute to society. The government needs to cut it's spending tremendously, but I'm not sure how. I do know that the answer is not to tax less and spend more, meanwhile building debt.

The truth is all gumbled up and hard to find, that's why I don't get overly involved in politics.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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bleachededen, I'll reply when I have the time to address your post. :) I promise.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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No worries, Chris. I'll be here to read whatever you have to say whenever you have time to say it. :)
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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Interbane wrote:"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." - Karl Marx

I've always liked this quote, and pondered it.

The rich would not be rich without the lower echelons and also the societal structure that allows them profit. Though they earn more, they also owe more, for the systems that allow them to be elevated to live like kings. Those poor lazy people on welfare who have an entitlement philosophy need to contribute to society. The government needs to cut it's spending tremendously, but I'm not sure how. I do know that the answer is not to tax less and spend more, meanwhile building debt.

The truth is all gumbled up and hard to find, that's why I don't get overly involved in politics.
I will try to say more later but for now I did want to add to Interbane's comment.

The reason America is such a wealthy country is due to the success of capitalism. Without capitalism there wouldn't be so much wealth to distribute. Obviously there needs to be some kind of balance between helping the poor and not penalizing those who earn a lot of money by the sweat of their brow. For if you take away the incentive for hard labor by overtaxing those who are successful you start to sabotage the entire system. Big companies will relocate and the smartest, best entrepreneurs may be inclined to do business elsewhere. I'm just starting to learn about some of this stuff myself. And I tend to agree with the libertarian mindset that the less government involvement in economic matters the better. Government involvement almost always leads to the Law of Unintended Consequences which is kind of the same thing as Murphy's Law.

I really appreciated bleachededen's post and I'm glad she's able to find help currently. But I also suspect a laissez-faire economy would create conditions that would actually improve the potential for her to find meaningful employment. She is obviously very intelligent and talented and I don't doubt that she will eventually find a job that doesn't require interaction with customers.

As for government providing a helping hand to those who need it, I think we have to be very careful how large we make that umbrella of support. Make it too big and the this welfare system will foster a growing dependence on itself and cripple both the system and those who are being helped. Also, if the government wasn't there to help, private charities would spring into existence to fill the void.

I'm not saying the government should not provide any support, only that we should minimize it as much as possible.

Likewise, I think we can easily go too far the other way, which I suspect is what happened under the Bush Administration. Bush seemed to want to appease the economy at all costs, but the economy has its ups and downs and when the government interferes with those natural cycles it probably only makes matters worse.

Again, it's a question of balance.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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This tax discussion reminds me of the movie Stranger Than Fiction, in which Maggie Gyllenhal portrays a young woman who bakes bread and cookies etc. for a boarding school who doesn't pay all of her taxes, intentionally, and is audited by the main character (Will Ferrell), an IRS agent who is slowly learning that he is a character in someone's novel and his actions and thoughts are being narrated by Emma Thompson.

Here is the interesting dialogue that commences between Harold Crick, the IRS agent, and Ana Pascal, the baker, when Harold comes to audit her (the part of the dialogue that I thought of in relation to this discussion is italicized):

Harold Crick: It says, in the file, that you only paid part of your taxes for last year.
Ana Pascal: That's right.
Harold Crick: Looks like only 78 percent.
Ana Pascal: Yep.
Harold Crick: So you did it on purpose?
Ana Pascal: Yep.
Harold Crick: So you must've been expecting an audit.
Ana Pascal: Um, I was expecting a fine, or a sharp reprimand.
Harold Crick: A reprimand? This isn't boarding school, Miss Pascal. You stole from the government.
Ana Pascal: No I didn't steal from the government. I just didn't pay you *entirely*.
Harold Crick: Miss Pascal, you can't just not pay your taxes.
Ana Pascal: Yes, I can.
Harold Crick: You can if you want to get audited.
Ana Pascal: Only if I recognize your right to audit me, Mr. Crick.
Harold Crick: Miss Pascal, I'm right here auditing you.
Ana Pascal: Listen, I'm a big supporter of fixing potholes and erecting swing sets and building shelters. I am *more* than happy to pay those taxes. I'm just not such a big fan of the percentage that the government uses for national defense, corporate bailouts, and campaign discretionary funds. So, I didn't pay those taxes. I think I sent a letter to that effect with my return.
Harold Crick: Would it be the letter that begins "Dear Imperialist Swine"?

Hilarious, yes, but also very relevant and something I agree with, whether or not I am a member of the working populace (which, as I've said, is my goal to get back to).

I agree that there should be a moratorium on welfare programs and that it shouldn't be as easy as it seems to be to become dependent on the system instead of simply using it as a short term tool to get back on your proverbial feet, but I have no idea how such a thing can happen without going too far and being so discriminatory that those who really do need help won't be able to get it. As Interbane and geo have both said, it is all about balance, but as the country becomes more polarized because of other issues that cloud people's judgment and distract from the real issues, I don't know how it will ever be possible to find that balance without some kind of revolution or extreme change in the way we vote and for whom we vote. Right now the system is broken, and I have no idea what kind events will be necessary to fix it, and I can only assume that things will get worse before they get better.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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etudiant wrote:Quote:A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

I like your quote Robert.

I don’t think there is a problem with over-taxation in the US. The real problem is the utter distain many of those on the right wing, such as the current “tea bag” nutters, have for government, and by extension, the rights of one’s community. Although forever shouting about government expenditures, it has in fact been Republican administrations that have outspent everyone in recent years. Reagan spent like a drunken sailor, initiating the current tradition of large annual deficits. The Bush Jr administration outdid all comers, spending massively while at the same time slashing taxes for the wealthy. After all the spending frenzies the neo-cons then sit back and say: “See, I told you so. The public sector just can’t manage its finances. Let’s privatize everything.” Meaning: lets hand out some juicy contracts to some of our backers.

The myth is avidly promoted by the moneyed class that most or all resources that go to government are wasted, so best to cut taxes as much as possible. This is in the interest of the very wealthy, because most public programs benefit the middle class or the poor much more than they do the well off. If you can afford to pay $30,000 for a medical procedure, then there is not much point in supporting taxes for Medicare, at least not according to the values of the tea bag crowd. If you are in the middle class or less fortunate, there is every point, because paying into a broadly based insurance scheme is the only way said procedure is going to be paid for.

Unfortunately the uber-rich have hijacked much of the political debate over many of these issues, and also sadly gained influence over the intellectually apathetic, a sizeable portion of the electorate today.
Are you speaking as a Canadian?

The precise reason for the emergence of the Tea Party Movement is dissatisfaction with current government officials be they Repulican or Democrat. The Tea Party is demanding that the government exercise fiscal restraint. As a conservative, I want there to be safety nets. People should not starve or die from neglect or want. But there is something fundamentally wrong when 50% of the population pays no taxes and the negotiations between lawmakers to pass bills would result in their arrest and prosecution for bribery and extortion if practiced outside congress.
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Is it too late?

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"One of the top political topics of 2009 was the health care reform plan which is still being worked on by Congress. Because of the vociferous debate about the plan, US citizens have probably become much more knowledgeable about the amount of debt that the US government owes. A great deal of that debt is held by countries such as China and that fact too has captured the public's attention.

But, there is another type of debt that isn't talked about as frequently. I am referring to what is called unfunded liabilities. In essence, the US government has made promises to pay monies today and in the future to it's citizens. We are talking about Social Security and Medicare.

The government raises funds for these expenditures from various taxes and then uses the money to fund the program. These programs are considered unfunded liabilities because, projecting out in the future, the revenues from the taxes will not be able to fund the projected expenditures. The numbers are actually quite staggering. The Social Security unfunded liability is projected to be 17.5 trillion dollars.

The Medicare unfunded liability is actually projected to be much higher. Medicare actually has parts A, B, and D, Part A funds hospital care. Part B funds Medical visits, and part D funds prescription drugs. The part A unfunded liability is estimated at 36 trillion dollars, part B at 37 trillion dollars, and part D at 15 trillion dollars.

The total amount of the unfunded liability comes out to just over 100 trillion dollars, or approximately $33,000* for every man, woman, and child in the country. And since the private net worth of all Americans together is estimated at just over $50 trillion dollars by the Federal Reserve, you can see the problem.

The reason that many are concerned is that the only 2 ways to rectify the situation is either to markedly raise taxes or cut the promised benefits. Since, most analysts feel that it is politically very difficult to cut promised benefits, most foresee significant tax raises in the future. There are some analysts who are much more sanguine about the problem arguing that there are so many assumptions built into these analyses that they could be significantly inaccurate.

Ricardo Smith is a financial journalist with an interest in international economics and macro investment trends. He is particularly interested in the latest opinions of the world's most successful investors.
http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-the-T ... id=3531013

*somebody check my math please. I get 100 trillion divided by 350 million is $300,000 not $30,000/stahrwe
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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Stahrwe, couldn't you have just given us the link and your thoughts on it instead of pasting the entire article and saying nothing about what you think? Do you not have thoughts on this? Are your thoughts always given to you by another source? What is the point of giving us someone else's words and then saying nothing of your own about why you chose this particular article to paste?

I would think if you were going to participate in a discussion you would actually discuss the topic, not just regurgitate someone else's ideas with not a word about why you liked their ideas or what you think. Just a thought.
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Re: Let’s all place our well-appointed ridicule of Tea Baggers here.

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bleachededen wrote:Stahrwe, couldn't you have just given us the link and your thoughts on it instead of pasting the entire article and saying nothing about what you think? Do you not have thoughts on this? Are your thoughts always given to you by another source? What is the point of giving us someone else's words and then saying nothing of your own about why you chose this particular article to paste?

I would think if you were going to participate in a discussion you would actually discuss the topic, not just regurgitate someone else's ideas with not a word about why you liked their ideas or what you think. Just a thought.
Did you bother to check my math or was this just a social call?

Cutting and pasting is not regurgitration.

Just a thought.
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