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Jesus

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Frank 013
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Re: Just because

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Oh,Just one other thing about this web site you linked. The author starts off his whole thesis with a lie.It is not the Jesus as a myth school that is making the special plea; it is the historical Jesus people who are. The Jesus Myth theory is gaining ground fast and now it is the Historical Jesus camp that is pleading to keep Jesus alive as a historical figure despite the fact that they have had absolutely no luck placing the man in history. Jesus has been grandfathered in for long enough it is time to send him along with all of the other mythical figures, he would be in good company at any rate, Hercules Mithra, Peruses... but he has not been established historically... period.Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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Frank 013
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Re: Jesus

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Quote:MadYou don't go around pointing out that fish have gills and erosion produces sand, so it looks to me as though it isn't the supposed "truth" of these "facts" that draws you to conversations like this.I do when people assert a clearly false statement on the matter.Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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Frank 013
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Re: Jesus

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DH,After reading the whole of the articles that you posted it is clear that they contain the same old arguments. There is zero evidence to suggest a historical Jesus.The only argument mentioned in those articles that I have not really focused on yet is the argument of the oral tradition.It basically states that because there seems to be (conjecture) a pattern to some of the writing style that there was probably an oral tradition established before anything was written down.I actually do not have a problem with this theory; I expect that it is true. But it does nothing to help the historical Jesus claim.Most of the major transposed text was written more than 100 years after the alleged death of Jesus, which is plenty of time to establish an oral tradition. Furthermore an oral tradition only shows that stories were being told, it says nothing about the truth of the stories or the people mentioned. Thank you for mentioning them DH, It was interesting reading and helped to solidify my stance considerably. Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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Re: Jesus

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Frank: After reading the whole of the articles that you posted it is clear that they contain the same old arguments. There is zero evidence to suggest a historical Jesus.Well, I guess that's how it is. I consider the evidence plausible, not absolute, but reasonable. I recognize the incomplete, fragmented and often partial elements involved in the data: and am willing to accept a kernal of historical veracity. I think the kernal refers to a struggle for liberation in the midst of imperial oppression: an historical act of resistance that has left an impression which we are still discussing over 2000 years later.
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Frank 013
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Re: Jesus

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Quote:DHWell, I guess that's how it is. I consider the evidence plausible, not absolute, but reasonable. I recognize the incomplete, fragmented and often partial elements involved in the data: and am willing to accept a kernal of historical veracity. I think the kernal refers to a struggle for liberation in the midst of imperial oppression: an historical act of resistance that has left an impression which we are still discussing over 2000 years later. And that is cool, you are not making any assertions or unrealistic statements. Thats all I really ask.Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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Re: Jesus

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OK Frank, here's a question for you: Do you, like most Historians, believe that St. Patrick was a real historical person? Full of Porn*http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com
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Re: Jesus

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I know almost nothing about St. Patrick except that he offers me green beer once a year disguised as a leprechaun!Seriously, I would have to look at the evidence before I made any kind of claim. And I really do not know anything about the person/character of St. Patrick. Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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OK, well here's a brief overview. 1. There are many myths about St. Patrick ranging from episodes where he drives non-existant snakes out of Ireland, to where he chats/fights with superpowered demi-gods.2. There are no contemporary records of Patricks existence. We don't know where he was supposed to have been born. The only records we have differ regarding the time of his arrival and death. While we have two documents (The letter to Coroticus and his Confession) that are supposed to have been writen by the preacher sometime after he arrived (traditionally thought of as around 432), the originals do not exist. We only have copies that are supposed to have been transcribed centuries later. 3. There is a reference to a chap called Palladius who was supposed to have been in Ireland around Patrick's time in Prospero's Chronicle. There Palladius is credited with ministering to Christians in Ireland and defeating Pelagianism in Britain. Now if I understand you, given that there are no contemporary records of Patrick's existence, we should then conclude he did not exist, right?
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Re: --

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Niall:If your three points are all we have to go on, I would not gamble any money on that person existing. If people want to make a MYTH about him fine, but I am not staking anything on it myself. Is that myth based on a person or actions by a person or persons? Possibly. But since St. Patrick was credited with talking to supernatural beings and driving out "non-existent" snakes...was he real...this version of Partick?Everyone knows that the Micks invented Patrick so they could have a patron Saint. Probably made him up after a bender one night...Mr. P. But atheism is no more a religion than not playing chess is a hobby. - Robert Sawyer - Sci Fi AuthorI'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)"The Sentient may percieve and love the universe, but the universe cannot percieve and love the sentient. The universe sees no distinction between the multitude of creatures and elements which comprise it. All are equal. None is favored...It cannot control what it creates and it cannot, it seems, be controlled by its creations (though a few might decieve themselves otherwise). Those who curse the workings of the universe curse that which is deaf. Those who strike out at those workings fight that which is inviolate. Those who shake their fists, shake their fists at blind stars." - Michael Moorcock in the "Queen of the Swords"Edited by: misterpessimistic at: 7/24/07 10:07 am
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Frank 013
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Is there any physical evidence to support his existence? (Not just records) any busts, pictures, murals, anything of him dated to the time he was around? Are there any records from eyewitnesses, even transcribed ones? How credible are the eyewitness accounts? (If they exist) The transcribed documents, (his letter and confession) is there a clear chain of custody? Do we know anything about the people who did the transcriptions? Is there any information about his family, have any of them been confirmed? What do we know about this Palladius character? Is he established through other records? Do any of his writings still exist? If so what can be corroborated from the two separate accounts? I still do not have nearly enough information to come to a conclusion. But what you have offered here is still light years better than anything we have for Jesus.Even a transcribed personal letter and confession is far better evidence than anything that exists for the Jesus character. (Assuming that there is no reason to expect that it was faked) Later Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a wellpreserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out,shouting..."Holy Crap...what a ride!"
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