Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:01 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 229 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President? 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Discussion Leader
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2067
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 77
Thanked: 776 times in 601 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Lawrence wrote:
I ask you LanDroid, does a ballet perform by regulations or agreement? Are cars manufactured by regulations or agreement? Is football played by regulations or agreement? Are our roads and bridges and airplane routes built by regulations or agreement.

Obviously ballet, cars, football, roads, bridges, and airplane routes are not run BY regulations or agreements. However they indeed run IN ACCORDANCE WITH regulations and agreements. Would you board an airplane that relied solely on the ethics and technical knowledge of the corporate owner for maintenance, safety procedures, design standards, personnel certifications etc. with ZERO external requirements or oversight? I didn't think so...

Perhaps you're not aware that NFL football is an extremely regulated "socialist" activity. For example the worst performing teams "win" the best draft choices the next year. There are many other rules such as salary caps that seek a reasonably competitive league. If you eliminated all those restrictions inevitably one team with a large media market and the top income would procure the best players and coaches, win more games and more money, continually recruit more of the best in the league, and establish a long term dynasty that fans would stop watching out of boredom.
Quote:
All I'm saying is that it is past time to sit down and see if there is a more effective system that can be designed to enable our society to live in peace. That is not science fiction it just takes the personal fortitude of men and women to think outside the box, be committed to it and suffer the rebukes of small minded persons who simply don't understand. Like the men and their women did in 1776.

Uhhhhh the men and women in 1776 overthrew a monarchy. They did not set up a Libertarian Utopia, but instead a Government that has evolved into our current situation.

Can't tell where you're going with this. I agree change is required. I'd love a better system that allowed this planet to live in peace, but I gave that up long ago as an adolescent pipe dream.
:bananaparty:



Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:41 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5803
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2257
Thanked: 2191 times in 1658 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Ideas about a better world system without borders are millennial. That means they will take an extremely long time to achieve, if ever. If you have a utopian vision of a world without borders, think about a theory of change to get from here to there over the next few thousand years, for example by first developing technology to deliver universal abundance. But don't advocate suddenly destabilising the current system. Stability is good. Instability produces conflict, collapse, tyranny and poverty. Instability is bad.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
LanDroid
Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:43 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I Should Be Bronzed

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1655
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 254
Thanked: 325 times in 248 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
A world without borders shouldn't be ascribed to 'millennials' in my opinion. Globalization has everything to do with money. You track the money and you'll track this globalization and world without borders. It has nothing to do with idiot millennials - as though they could get something like that done. Bankers, large banks, people with MONEY - prying open the legs of new markets to screw and keep screwed. This is where globalization comes from.

Stability is good... depends on who you are and what your situation is. If I'm on fire but the temperature is a stable 1,000 degrees, this 'stability' is going to create a lot of conflict between my wanting to live and the wish that I die as soon as possible to stop the pain, collapse of my whole being, tyranny of the rising of the flames and poverty of oxygen to breathe.

Stability is only good when the situation is not that bad. Little bad? ok? Going badly? No worries - could be worse. We've seen what happens after a revolution/revolt and it's usually never very good. Like that can happen in this country anyway. I sometimes feel that for a country that pretends to love freedom and rule by the people, we hate hate hate hate the idea of it.



Last edited by President Camacho on Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:18 am
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Florida
Thanks: 54
Thanked: 49 times in 35 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
LanDroid,
To despair is to die. Read Victor Frankel's "Man's Search for Meaning." With the potential of 9 billion human minds, working toward a common goal there is no telling what we might achieve. I suspect anyone living before the 19th Century who would appear today would be bewildered that we land on the moon, travel the world in days, watch television, etc. Don't give up LanDroid. No one knows better than me how lonely it is "out here." The eternal questions are still discussed. Why are we born? What are we to do, individually and collectively while we live. But they have been answered. If you believe God started this shindig then you follow the human logic of the dogma of one of the 2,800 organized religions that provide that dogma. If you don't believe God started this world, then you believe it is the Destiny of humanity to discover itself. And, that is pretty much what we have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years. Looking at our maturation as a unified society it has been as rough a ride as going on a three legged camel.
I believe our personal interaction in solving the problems of life do not have to be the result of prideful thinking, "my way or the highway." We are doing better, we simply need to design better systems that will protect people from tyrants.

Robert, You know how much I respect your mind, but instability is the motivational force behind Chris's question. You may not know that 30 miles north of where I live, the fish heads and red necks play war games every weekend with paint guns. They all own more that three rifles. We are murdering each other at the alarming rate of 8-10 (my guess) people a day. The facade that the USA is a stable country is shattered by the schism manifested by our current presidential election. And play with the notion Hillary may be Criminally indited. If it is crazy now, ...Even Bill may not be able to talk his way out.

Every generation has its challenges, we just need to man up, put our big girl panties on, and try. (I don't believe we need to say "This is the answer.")



Last edited by Lawrence on Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:20 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I Should Be Bronzed

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1655
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 254
Thanked: 325 times in 248 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
I didn't understand the paint ball/ gun argument.

When you make your neighbor weaker, you make yourself weaker. It's up to you to be a member of a community and to foster that community. Freedom, true freedom, will always be messy. Democracy will always be messy and expensive and will constantly trip up with massive pushes forward and idiotic trips and fumbles.

Giving one person or group freedom means taking it away from another. Look to give people in your same street freedoms. Have them exercise these freedoms. Get them accustomed to freedoms. Watch a group of people that have never had freedom get instant freedom in the sense that rules and regulation against specific activities go lax. All of a sudden these people go absolutely ape crazy. People need to bring responsibility on to themselves a little more rather than trying to find a stronger entity than themselves, stronger than their whole community, for "help". It turns from "help" into control and your 'self' control is lost/deferred. You've admitted that not only are you too irresponsible to live without control but have given moral authority of your control to someone else. Why admit yourself into this crazy house? You ever tried to talk yourself out of a crazy house that gets paid to 'help' you?



Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:37 am
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Florida
Thanks: 54
Thanked: 49 times in 35 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Paint gun, There are many, many people who are prepared, willing and able to make an armed insurrection against the current government.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:40 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Discussion Leader
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2067
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 77
Thanked: 776 times in 601 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Lawrence wrote:
With the potential of 9 billion human minds, working toward a common goal there is no telling what we might achieve.

That global aspiration sounds wonderful, but contrast it with your statement about armed insurrection against the U.S. Government*. Humans are small minded and power hungry. What could possibly unite the U.S., Isis, neo-Nazis, China, Russia, conservatives, North Korea, environmentalists, Libertarians, drug cartels, and socialists? Other than Jesus' genocidal return, the only thing that might focus humanity on a common goal would be a full scale alien invasion and occupation as in science fiction movies.

(*I'm sure those folks do not understand constitutional limits on militias. I also expect their numbers decline precipitously when a white male republican is President and increase dramatically when a white, black, male, or female democrat is President.)



Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:35 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Florida
Thanks: 54
Thanked: 49 times in 35 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Well LanDroid, I make the "Man called 'Ove'" look like Mother Teresa. (Chris, that's a book I think BookTalk members would really enjoy.) It is probably time for me to show my age. With words and syntax being as defective as they are in failing to communicate, it is amazing we get along as well as we do. That, and what E.D. Hirsh said in "Cultural Literacy," and Toffler said in "Future Shock," we really ought to marvel at how well we are doing.
That being said LanDroid, I believe it weakens your argument to make a categorical statement as a fact when it is based solely on your opinion. I believe a person should be very cautious in stating opinions as facts. We get a little slipshod here on BookTalk but this is my attempt to reign it in a bit. Let's us, in this Thread, try harder to "stick to the facts."

It is not possible to consider a change to the current order without considering the consequences to the current order and what the future order might be like.



Last edited by Lawrence on Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:39 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Discussion Leader
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2067
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 77
Thanked: 776 times in 601 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Dunno what statement you see as merely opinion, but I'm sure you're doing the same. It is not possible to "stick to the facts" when discussing the future.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:12 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I Should Be Bronzed

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1655
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 254
Thanked: 325 times in 248 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Pretty disingenuous statement Lan.... Empirical data pointing to a probable conclusion.... never threw your hat in that ring and cited facts? The statement may be true but how far off the mark from the man is the statement? That's what I wonder.



The following user would like to thank President Camacho for this post:
Lawrence
Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 pm
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5803
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2257
Thanked: 2191 times in 1658 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
President Camacho wrote:
A world without borders shouldn't be ascribed to 'millennials' in my opinion.
Ha ha, I did not mean millennials in the sense of people born after 1980, but millennials in the traditional sense of those who dream of the thousand years of peace described in the Bible.

Millennialism in religion is the idea that the second coming of Jesus Christ will bring a paradigm shift to a world of peace and love. Anabaptists, Mennonites and also a range of conservative fundamentalists are millennial, although most millennial thinking is of the kooky rapture variety.

I like millennial thinking, but from a scientific pov of asking how human society can evolve to escape collapse.

It is ironic that those who came of age at the millennium are called millennial, since the old Christian 7000 year theory of time assumed that Jesus would come back to institute the thousand years of peace, ruling with the rod of iron and chaining Satan in the pit of fire, from 2000 to 3000 AD.

The idea of Jesus ruling the world would involve abolition of nation states and national borders in some views, at least those which don’t assume doomsday is about the end of the laws of physics.

With 40% of Americans believing young earth creationism which evolved together with the 7000 year theory of time, there is a very big hold that millennial thinking has in the American psyche and politics. Old fashioned millennial fundamentalists tend to be last trumpeters.
President Camacho wrote:
Stability is good... depends on who you are and what your situation is.
My personal view about the value of stability arose from watching the collapse of communism in the Warsaw Pact, alongside the retention of formal communism in China. Russia is a mess compared to China, and a big part of that is the chaos unleashed by Gorby in 1989.

This political decision by Deng to make stability the highest value is in my opinion the one key factor that delivered the millennium development goal of halving absolute poverty in the world. The policy of kill one and make a million tremble is harsh but effective, when the emperor has clear vision.

If China had been riven by political conflict and instability, it would not now be challenging the USA for world hegemony. I put stability up there with evidence and logic as the highest moral value.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
Lawrence, President Camacho
Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:26 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Florida
Thanks: 54
Thanked: 49 times in 35 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Lan, this is all opinion in my opinion. ( I cant work the quote) . Humans are small minded and power hungry. What could possibly unite the U.S., Isis, neo-Nazis, China, Russia, conservatives, North Korea, environmentalists, Libertarians, drug cartels, and socialists? Other than Jesus' genocidal return, the only thing that might focus humanity on a common goal would be a full scale alien invasion and occupation as in science fiction movies.



Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:53 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I Should Be Bronzed

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1655
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 254
Thanked: 325 times in 248 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Tulip,

Interesting as always. My apologies for not being better versed in the history of religion. I see that as a benefit - just as a man is molded by life experiences as Clausewitz suggested in his treatise on war, I feel investing my time learning it would harm me. Excluding it from my past studies always brings a smile to my face.

I like to think of stability as earth in relation to a garden. Too much for too long can create problems but it IS generally a truly good thing and quite necessary for growth.



Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:01 am
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Discussion Leader
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2067
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks: 77
Thanked: 776 times in 601 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
Code:
[quote="LanDroid"]Humans are small minded and power hungry. What could possibly unite the U.S., Isis, neo-Nazis, China, Russia, conservatives, North Korea, environmentalists, Libertarians, drug cartels, and socialists? Other than Jesus' genocidal return, the only thing that might focus humanity on a common goal would be a full scale alien invasion and occupation as in science fiction movies.[/quote]

Lawrence, see above for how to use the quote tags. (Ignore the initial "code:") That produces what follows.
LanDroid wrote:
Humans are small minded and power hungry. What could possibly unite the U.S., Isis, neo-Nazis, China, Russia, conservatives, North Korea, environmentalists, Libertarians, drug cartels, and socialists? Other than Jesus' genocidal return, the only thing that might focus humanity on a common goal would be a full scale alien invasion and occupation as in science fiction movies.

Well yes those are opinions, but they're based on mountains of facts. Look to the world's dictators to illustrate how power hungry humans are. They kill, imprison, and corrupt large numbers of the populations they rule in order to remain in power. Look to the world's democracies for how small minded humans are. Republicans had 4 to 8 years to come up with a coherent strategy for the 2016 election. Instead they field 16 candidates with fractured policies and nominate an ass clown. Or take the European Union, an example of nations working together to improve the situation, but too much power in the central authority may be starting to break down that cooperation, inspiring nations to leave.

In your unsupported opinion, 9 billion humans working together have unlimited potential. Where is the evidence for such widespread cooperation in the last 5000 years? Even in America you claim "There are many, many people who are prepared, willing and able :lol: to make an armed insurrection against the current government." Obviously you have conflicted opinions about the human potential to cooperate. Other than the global conflagrations I mentioned, I can't imagine anything that would unite all humanity towards a common goal. What "facts" support your opinion that humanity will construct a global peace?

In support of Mr. Tulip's statements about the millennial nature of human progress, perhaps one small step humanity should work on is agreeing to not see the enemy as Evil. I doubt even that is possible, but it might increase the long term potential for greater cooperation.



Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:01 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5803
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2257
Thanked: 2191 times in 1658 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Is anyone else completely torn about who they want to be the next US President?
LanDroid wrote:
how to use the quote tags


Go to the post you want to quote.

Click on the box at the top right of the post that says Quote.

Delete any text you don't want to quote.

Add your comment.

I then click on Control C A to copy the post in case it fails, and in a longer post I prepare it in word, since there is no undo function typing a post directly.

Then click review. Edit any mistakes. Then post. Then edit again and fix any mistakes.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post:
Lawrence
Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:17 am
Profile Email WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 229 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Announcements 

• Promote Your Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:33 pm

• Promote Your Non-Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 pm



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank