If clergy were honest, would religions die?

I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.

Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.

Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?

Regards
DL

P.S.
What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn16DsftSjI

Telling the truth involves a paradigm shift for Christianity, but is basically impossible for Islam.

The truth is that faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is a very different thing from faith in Jesus of Nazareth, except as purely symbolic parable, since Nazareth almost certainly did not exist until well after the purported time of the Gospels, and was only named after the title of Jesus.

Christianity in its old paradigm has degenerated into a brittle fragile shell, unable to enter serious scholarly dialogue, due to the intense dogmatism of its emotional commitment to the literal truth of Gospel myths. As such, it is withering away, held in contempt by rational people.

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God can be salvaged only through a return to sincere humility, accepting that there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, and that Christianity is instead grounded in transcendental imagination. That means seeing Jesus Christ as the symbolic archetype of human wholeness who connects time to eternity, earth to heaven, and humanity to God, to produce a transformative messianic ethical system of thought.

The Gospels are a thought experiment, using transcendental imagination to portray what such a connecting person would have been like if he had in fact existed.

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

There were some literate people in ancient times who left statements that indicate a different level of belief, but that doesn't have a direct bearing on the manner in which the rest of the people believed. My thought is that, in all times, the concrete or literal way of believing is the norm, with the more intellectual believers being the outliers.

Seminary students learn that most of the childhood religious fairy tales they've learned are false. But do Priests then speak the Truth to their flock? No! Because the congregation would turn those priests out of their parish or church. So they're stuck, preaching to the deluded. If the clergy was honest, they'd get nowhere.

LanDroid wrote:Seminary students learn that most of the childhood religious fairy tales they've learned are false. But do Priests then speak the Truth to their flock? No! Because the congregation would turn those priests out of their parish or church. So they're stuck, preaching to the deluded. If the clergy was honest, they'd get nowhere.

The Bible contains the means for its own redemption.

The Minister at my church in her sermon on Christmas Day last year described the Christmas infancy narratives as 'rich foundation myths' and said their value rests more in what they mean for us today than as descriptions of actual events. That heuristic presents a valuable path to retain value in the Bible.

It is possible, although difficult, to have a respectful approach that neither derides the Bible as 'fairy stories' nor accepts literal claims that are implausible. Honest preaching can routinely caveat mention of Bible claims by terms such as 'the book of ... says' which use the story for a moral lesson without claiming it is historically true.

Unfortunately church goers as a whole are not ready for honesty about the Bible, and nor are theologians. The terrain for honest analysis is restricted to the outer darkness of books and the internet, with the expectation that truth will prevail, albeit gradually.

As Jesus is quoted at John 8:32, the truth will set you free. The alternative to what Paul at Romans 8:21 called 'glorious liberty' is what he described as 'bondage to decay'. Jesus was also said to condemn hypocrisy, for example at Matthew 23, so it is impossible for the church to maintain intellectual integrity and honesty while being openly hypocritical.

Robert Tulip wrote:Telling the truth involves a paradigm shift for Christianity, but is basically impossible for Islam.

The truth is that faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is a very different thing from faith in Jesus of Nazareth, except as purely symbolic parable, since Nazareth almost certainly did not exist until well after the purported time of the Gospels, and was only named after the title of Jesus.

Christianity in its old paradigm has degenerated into a brittle fragile shell, unable to enter serious scholarly dialogue, due to the intense dogmatism of its emotional commitment to the literal truth of Gospel myths. As such, it is withering away, held in contempt by rational people.

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God can be salvaged only through a return to sincere humility, accepting that there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, and that Christianity is instead grounded in transcendental imagination. That means seeing Jesus Christ as the symbolic archetype of human wholeness who connects time to eternity, earth to heaven, and humanity to God, to produce a transformative messianic ethical system of thought.

The Gospels are a thought experiment, using transcendental imagination to portray what such a connecting person would have been like if he had in fact existed.

I could not compliment such thinking adequately so will just shut up and read it a few more times in hopes of developing such eloquence.

Regards
DL

DWill wrote:

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.

There were some literate people in ancient times who left statements that indicate a different level of belief, but that doesn't have a direct bearing on the manner in which the rest of the people believed. My thought is that, in all times, the concrete or literal way of believing is the norm, with the more intellectual believers being the outliers.

I agree. Even Jesus indicated that he dumbed down his message for the masses by using parables and had a more intellectual line for his disciples.

Perhaps that is why so many called many belief systems mystery schools.

Regards
DL

LanDroid wrote:Seminary students learn that most of the childhood religious fairy tales they've learned are false. But do Priests then speak the Truth to their flock? No! Because the congregation would turn those priests out of their parish or church. So they're stuck, preaching to the deluded. If the clergy was honest, they'd get nowhere.

You might be right, but we collectively might be getting brighter about such things.

There is a time difference between the two links below. The first evidences your view and the second mine. Seeing as Christianity is on the wane in the West, I think my position to be more correct, of course.

Just kidding on that last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_rmQuagpY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtJPSmI9pY

Regards
DL

Robert Tulip wrote:Jesus was also said to condemn hypocrisy, for example at Matthew 23, so it is impossible for the church to maintain intellectual integrity and honesty while being openly hypocritical.

The West seems to recognize the lies and hypocrisy as demonstrated by the slow death of Christianity but Africa and China, just to name two countries, have Christianity growing.

I know education is not the best in Africa, not all countries there of course but many, but the Chinese are well educated.

Mind you, if I live in China I might be looking hard for a savior as well.

Regards
DL

(Edited to fix the author of the quote. LanDroid)

BookTalk has discussed Gretta Vosper at length before.

Perhaps things are moving somewhat in Gnostic Bishop's direction. I hadn't heard of Rob Bell before. He no longer believes in hell, therefore receives massive condemnation, but also inspires large crowds.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/us/rob-be ... index.html