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How did consciousness evolve? 
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Post How did consciousness evolve?
The headline here probably overstates how much a new theory can explain the emergence of consciousness. Some very intriguing possibilities though.

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/arch ... ed/485558/


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Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:19 am
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
This means things like love, and the conclusions a person draws from atheism is nothing but an illusory froth on top of a system designed to cope with sensory overload.

Thanks, Geo. Interesting.



Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:38 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
Why be so shallow, even as an antagonist? There's stuff here for both sides.


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Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:51 am
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
Hey - you're the one that's shallow with your "love is just a spandrell" gig.

You're projecting your shallowness on to me.

Consciousness arose to accommodate and manage external sensory stimuli.
The rest is just gene propagation and survival.

You're welcome to argue for and against the above. Irrational, but an understandable coping mechanism.



Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:51 am
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
ant wrote:
Hey - you're the one that's shallow with your "love is just a spandrell" gig.


How is it shallow? Some types of love are a spandrel. Most love isn't.


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Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:58 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
Hey - you're the one that's shallow with your "love is just a spandrell" gig.


How is it shallow? Some types of love are a spandrel. Most love isn't.



Oh - now it's "some types" huh?!

So now other types have meaning beyond simple sensory coping mechanisms and "blind" gene survival.
I'm sure nature cares that you think that, right?



Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:42 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
ant wrote:
You're projecting your shallowness on to me.


Completely unnecessary.



Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:20 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
The biggest problem of consciousness is consciousness. We say that consciousness is awareness but it is really experience. We are conscious because we experience the world around us. Everything we observe is an experience. The problem is that we can't explain why we should experience anything nor can we explain our experiences. What we take as hard, objective data is really a subjective experience that no one can explain. Where does consciousness come from? All these dry theories that try to explain it have to be understood through consciousness which is a subjective experience that no one can explain because we're trying to reduce consciousness to data which cannot be done. Consciousness is ultimately a quale. Subjective experience (qualia) is not data. Data can be understood through subjective experience but not the other way around.

Subjective experience has always been here. Materialists might say the universe exists independently of consciousness but "universe" is what we observe outside ourselves and that is subjective experience. Universe is subjective experience--no subjective experience, no universe. Materialism not only cannot explain how consciousness should arise from dead matter but cannot predict it either--would have no reason to--except that it exists.

Consciousness then is the ground floor, the foundation, not matter. Matter is only a subjective experience that cannot be explained. We can observe it, measure it, classify it, but we cannot ultimately explain it. We can't say what that chunk of matter before us really is. We cannot even say if it is really there. The only thing we know for certain that exists is consciousness, subjective experience. It is not created, it is not destroyed. It didn't come from anywhere and it is not going anywhere. It is not this, that or the other. It simply is. And somehow, we are part of it.



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Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:58 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
ant wrote:
Oh - now it's "some types" huh?!


Search the archives and find my original wording. You didn't understand me back then either, apparently.


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Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:07 am
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
Oh - now it's "some types" huh?!


Search the archives and find my original wording. You didn't understand me back then either, apparently.


Your worldview simply cannot ground emotions like love in anything that is not reducible to "blind" gene survival.

The article added some additions to it: consciousness arose to handle sensory overload. That's basically it. There is nothing profound there for you; propagation and survival of genes within organic vessels that negotiate sensory overload via consciousness.
Your love for your family and friends is your subjective experience and THAT'S it, but it has no objective meaning to blind and purposeless Nature.

Why do you have to be so entirely dishonest about your worldview?
It's really old.



Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:05 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
ant wrote:
Your worldview simply cannot ground emotions like love in anything that is not reducible to "blind" gene survival.


I'd argue about it being reducible. But your point is more or less right. That doesn't make most types of love a spandrel.

ant wrote:
Your love for your family and friends is your subjective experience and THAT'S it, but it has no objective meaning to blind and purposeless Nature.


Do you propose there's something more? Does Nature care about who you love?

It seems that whenever you find an explanation insufficient, it's because you expect something that isn't real.


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Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:19 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
ant wrote:
This means things like love, and the conclusions a person draws from atheism is nothing but an illusory froth on top of a system designed to cope with sensory overload.

This is certainly not a conclusion I would ever agree with.


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Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:01 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
geo wrote:
ant wrote:
This means things like love, and the conclusions a person draws from atheism is nothing but an illusory froth on top of a system designed to cope with sensory overload.

This is certainly not a conclusion I would ever agree with.



That's because you're a spiritual atheist agnostic!



Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:02 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
Quote:
Do you propose there's something more? Does Nature care about who you love?


The conclusions of my worldview are not being discussed here, yours are.

You've assumed without evidence there is no purpose (as homo sapiens understand purpose to be) to Nature.
Yours is the best explanation you can come up with for all this purposeless undesigned splendor.

Consciousness is only a sophisticated response to stimuli.
You agree with that, right?



Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:07 pm
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Post Re: How did consciousness evolve?
you guys quit arguing with ant and be his straw man. He needs you to allow him to reduce you to something he can beat in an argument and you're not playing along. That's unsportsmanlike.



Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:26 pm
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