I have been watching the news and saw the story involving the mining tragedy in West Virginia. When the false news came out about the survivors, all of the religious supporters were playing the "miracle" card. When the truth of the situation was actually discovered the families and friends of the miners were crushed their false hope only seemed to make things worse.Is this what is to be expected from faith? The idea that prayer will somehow protect good Christians from harm seems like it could be hazardous both physically and emotionally. As a realist I was very skeptical when I heard that the miners were all alive. I only accepted the information as true because I did not know the specific conditions in the mine. But my first impression was that their survival was very unlikely. I was not surprised when the media came back with very different news. The family of the survivor might say that their prayers were answered, but what about the other families? Believers seem to forget about the fact that many other good Christians died despite the countless prayers in their behalf. Why did the prayers not work for the vast majority? Were the rest of these poor people any less deserving of God's compassion? If prayer does not work (As it appears) and God either does not listen or does not exist than why bother with him? It seems to me that some people can handle life and the challenges that come with it and others need support. Support often comes in the form of imaginary friends, guardian angels and God. The danger of these imaginary beings comes from believing in them so strongly that people fail to protect themselves, putting themselves into situations of risk physically and emotionally. After all, do we expect little Johnny's imaginary friend to protect him from bullies? I am sure that many of the victims and their families were and are good Christians, despite this their prayers were not answered. Their faith kept them from realizing the reality of the situation and left them open to the emotional slamming they received. As for the survivor I expect that he lived because of his training, his equipment and possibly the sacrifice of his fellow miners, without these things all the prayer in the world would have been wasted. Oddly, I expect the families and even the miner himself to thank God anyway.As the story unfolded throughout the day some of the families interviewed claimed that their faith had been irreversibly damaged. In effect they said that they had unrealistic expectations from the power of prayer. I think their hurt must be compounded by the fact that God must have abandoned them in their hour of need.A hard lesson learned.

Fundie: I survived inoperable brain cancer, thanks to my faith. It was truly a miracle.Atheist: Yes, getting brain cancer is truly a miraculous thing.=========1st ScenarioMe: Everyone on the plane survived, including prominent anti-evolutionary fundies.Creationist: It's a miracle!2nd ScenarioCreationist: A plane crashed, and the only deaths were those of prominent anti-evolutionary fundies.Me: It's a miracle!=========People really should reserve the word "miracle" for truly improbable occurences, like the raising of the dead...not for paltry things like surviving a disaster or some medical problem. It just makes God's miracles look small and petty with all this large scale death and disease going on all around us.

i think people of faith or non-faith would have been equally devastated having been told their loved one's were alive only to be told they were really dead. scpeticism of news sources when loved ones' lives are on the line is a hard thing to accomplish.your point about miracle vs. tragedy depending upon who is involved is a great point.

I agree that anyone, religious or atheist is going to be devastated by the deaths of family members, and anyone in that situation will hope for the best. The deference is in objectivity, an agnostic or atheist will look at the facts, if things look bad they begin to prepare for the worst. When a person puts faith into an imaginary protector they have altered the odds in their mind, and are less prepared for the bad news when it comes. In addition they may also begin to feel abandoned by the being that they put their faith into, adding doubt and possibly guilt to the tragic pain already suffered.It seems pointless to me.

Quote:The deference is in objectivity, an agnostic or atheist will look at the facts, if things look bad they begin to prepare for the worst.agreed to a limited point. i think people who are more open minded and less emotionally driven, more rationalizing, regardless of theistic leaning will look at the facts. the tendency to put faith in a higher power and have falst hope a loved one will be saved by supernatural intervention does exist for many theists and i would suspect (opinion) especially those involved with organized religion. but i suspect many thiests would be just as rational and thoughtful of the situation as atheists, and perhaps there are many atheists who would be completely irrational and filled with false hope despite a lack of faith. i see a limited correlation but nothing near direct causation is what i think i am trying to suggest.

Quote: I was not surprised when the media came back with very different news. It was the idiot media that told the so-called good news to begin with...........where's the accountability for that tragedy?Quote:When a person puts faith into an imaginary protector they have altered the odds in their mindIf you are saying that God is imaginary, he is only imaginary to those who are lost and self willed. To those who know Him, He is the light shining in the hearts of those who recognize thier moral condition and follow Him into the light; escaping the corruption of the fallen human nature...But that is total absurdity to the very wise of this age! 4 Super Bowl Championships - 2005

1 Corinthians 1 18For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God. 19For it is written, I will baffle and render useless and destroy the learning of the learned and the philosophy of the philosophers and the cleverness of the clever and the discernment of the discerning; I will frustrate and nullify [them] and bring [them] to nothing.(A) 20Where is the wise man (the philosopher)? Where is the scribe (the scholar)? Where is the investigator (the logician, the debater) of this present time and age? Has not God shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world's wisdom? 21For when the world with all its earthly wisdom failed to perceive and recognize and know God by means of its own philosophy, God in His wisdom was pleased through the foolishness of preaching [salvation, procured by Christ and to be had through Him], to save those who believed (who clung to and trusted in and relied on Him). 22For while Jews [demandingly] ask for signs and miracles and Greeks pursue philosophy and wisdom, 23We preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, [preaching which] to the Jews is a scandal and an offensive stumbling block [that springs a snare or trap], and to the Gentiles it is absurd and utterly unphilosophical nonsense. 24But to those who are called, whether Jew or Greek (Gentile), Christ [is] the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. 25[This is] because the foolish thing [that has its source in] God is wiser than men, and the weak thing [that springs] from God is stronger than men. 26For [simply] consider your own call, brethren; not many [of you were considered to be] wise according to human estimates and standards, not many influential and powerful, not many of high and noble birth. 27[No] for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame. 28And God also selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is lowborn and insignificant and branded and treated with contempt, even the things that are nothing, that He might depose and bring to nothing the things that are, 29So that no mortal man should [have pretense for glorying and] boast in the presence of God. 30But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin]. 31So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord.(B) 4 Super Bowl Championships - 2005

similar life experience that contributed to my loss of faith/belief in god/gods. And I would agree it has to do with realist/dealing with reality. And so damn difficult when those around you, don't see/realize/deal with the reality that is coming.

BadBucYour first post is fine, but the second is not acceptable in this community. We do not allow preaching. Bandwidth costs money and this community doesn't spend it's limited resources on copied and pasted scripture. Please self-moderate. No more scripture.

Frank 013, you have a very valid point. One of the things that first started me on the path towards Atheism was the fact that with/without the belief in God my life was the same. My life isn't worse off because I don't believe in God and my life wasn't better because I did.The sad thing is the believers will rationalize what happened as it being God's Will. It was God's Will that 12 miners suffocate to death in a mine. Interesting.