So I think it's a cop out if you just appeal to unknowns because you can't find a reasonable alternative explanation.

youkrst wrote:

Harry wrote:but I fear the evidence must be stronger than a simple allegation of suppression for me to worry much about it.

Harry Marks wrote:

youkrst wrote:
So, given that some rather odd claims are being made, such as Jesus movement existing for centuries before Paul, I would like to see evidence. Merely claiming that the lack of evidence is explained by suppression of heresy is too thin.

Whew. Sorry I wasn't clearer in the first place.

DB Roy wrote: What's odd is how Christians dismiss the evidence that is staring them in the face. The Jesus or Joshua figure is clearly very ancient.
For one thing, he is the same Joshua of the Old Testament--Joshua son of Nun. Nun means "fish." And I'll point more parallels later. But it's equally clear this Joshua was taken out and dusted off and placed at numerous space-time locales over the centuries.

DB Roy wrote:In the extra-Talmudic material, we find reference to Joshua ben Pandira, a miracle-worker who was stoned and hung from a tree in 71 BCE. In Acts 5:30-32, we read:
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are his witnesses of these things...
Except the writer lied. They were not witnesses to these things because they had re-created this ancient Joshua figure from Joshua ben Pandira who was recreated from earlier accounts and lore.

DB Roy wrote: By the way, Krishna was also slain and hung from a tree.

DB Roy wrote:Zecharia 3 and 6 and Ezra mention a Joshua who is high priest not a warrior. He was resisted by Satan, crowned a king, called the Branch (Messiah), and associated with seven eyes or stars (same as the son of man image in Revelation who holds seven stars in his hand). We know this is only retold lore from an older period because the writer himself attributes the story to one of the rebuilders of the temple.

DB Roy wrote:In Jude 1:5-7 in the RSV, we read: 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Who is the he that Jude refers to in verse 5? Notice the footnote b. What does it read? I'll quote it for you verbatim:
"Jude 1:5 Ancient authorities read Jesus or the Lord or God"
Notice the importance of that footnote!! "Ancient authorities" actually used the word Jesus and the one who saved a people out of the land of Egypt and then destroyed those who did not believe!!!! Moreover, reading the entire passage, this Jesus is CLEARLY not historical and clearly placed chronologically amidst Old Testament events!!

DB Roy wrote:Then in the Sibylline Oracles, a Christian work, we read: "Now a certain excellent man shall come again from heaven...the best of the Hebrews, who once made the sun stand still." They don't mention him by name but it's clearly a reference to the Old Testament Joshua except we can now see how the OT author revised the story since Joshua didn't make the sun stand still but God did it for him. But here, Joshua himself did it AND he came from heaven!

DB Roy wrote:In Mark 9:38, we read:John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."
Then what Jesus was the man following? Now, you might respond that this man then was obviously not preaching Jesus Christ and so the two Jesuses are not the same. But in the next verse, Jesus himself says they are:
But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.…

DB Roy wrote: In 1 Corinthian 2:7-9, Paul states:
7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

It's odd enough that Paul is talking of esoteric wisdom lore but the phrase "rulers of this age" is a mistranslation and I believe willfully so. Paul's Greek phrase is: "archonton tou aionos" which actually means "powers of the aeon" which refers to a 2,160 year period or 1/12 of the Great Year 25,920 years--a single cycle of the precession of the earth. Every 2,160 years, we pass into a new aeon or age named after one the zodiac signs. Currently, we're supposed to be in Aquarius.

DB Roy wrote: The gospelic Jesus was unknown to Paul but he knows of one that was crucified by celestial powers and, as his authority, claims it is "hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages"--ancient wisdom lore.

1. Identical Name: Yehoshua, "Yahweh is Salvation"

The English name "Joshua" is a rendering of the Hebrew language "Yehoshua", meaning "Yahweh is salvation". The vocalization of the second name component may be read as Hoshea - the name used in the Torah before Moses added the divine name (Numbers 13:16). "Jesus" is the English of the Greek transliteration of "Yehoshua" via Latin. In the Septuagint, all instances of the word "Yehoshua" are rendered as "Iesous" which is the closest Greek pronunciation of the Aramaic "Yeshua" (Nehemiah 8:17). Thus in Greek Joshua is called "Jesus son of Nun" to differentiate him from Jesus Christ.



Note that "Joshua", "Jeshua", and "Jesus" are really the same name. That is, the name "Jesus" is a Latinization of the Aramaic Jeshua or Yeshua, which is in turn taken from the Hebrew Yehoshua, or Joshua. Thus, Jesus was thus named after the Old Testament hero.
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2. Identical Roles: Leader of Israel

JOSHUA: "Because of you the Lord became angry with me also and said, "You shall not enter it, either. But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it." (Deuteronomy 1:37-38)



JESUS: "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'" (Matthew 2:6)
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3. Identical Mission: Peace

JOSHUA: "The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the Lord. Then Joshua made a treaty of peace with them to let them live, and the leaders of the assembly ratified it by oath." (Joshua 9:14-15)



JESUS: "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
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4. Identical Number of Appointed Men: Twelve

a. Joshua appointed twelve men from each tribe:

"So Joshua called together the twelve men he had appointed from the Israelites." (Joshua 4:4)

b. Jesus appointed twelve apostles:

"These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder); Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him." (Mark 3:16-19)

c. Jesus twelve apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel:

"Jesus said to them [twelve apostles], "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)

d. Considering how families and friends tend to reincarnate together, perhaps the twelve apostles were reincarnations of the twelve rulers of the tribes of Israel.

5. Identical Representations: Twelve Stones
a. Joshua choose 12 men from each tribe and represented each one by a gemstone:

"The Lord said to Joshua, "Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe, and tell them to take up twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan from right where the priests stood and to carry them over with you and put them down at the place where you stay tonight." (Joshua 4:1-3)



Israel's 12 Tribal Leaders: "In the first row there shall be a ruby, a topaz and a beryl; in the second row a turquoise, a sapphire and an emerald; in the third row a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. Mount them in gold filigree settings. There are to be twelve stones, one for each of the names of the sons of Israel, each engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes." (Exodus 28:17-21)
1. Ruby 2. Topaz 3. Beryl
4. Turquoise 5. Sapphire 6. Emerald
7. Jacinth 8. Agate 9. Amethyst
10. Chrysolite 11. Onyx 12. Jasper

b. Jesus choose 12 apostles with each apostle represented by a gemstone in the Book of Revelation:

"It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb ... "The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst." (Revelation 21:12-20)
12. Jasper 5. Sapphire 8. Chalcedony (Agate)
6. Emerald 11. Sardonyx (Onyx) 1. Carnelian (Ruby)
10. Chrysolite 3. Beryl 2. Topaz
4. Chrysoprase (Turquoise) 7. Jacinth 9. Amethyst

c. The types of gemstones representing the 12 tribal leaders of Israel are the same as the 12 gemstones representing the 12 apostles but in different order:

Harry Marks wrote:

DB Roy wrote:

DB Roy wrote:In the extra-Talmudic material, we find reference to Joshua ben Pandira, a miracle-worker who was stoned and hung from a tree in 71 BCE. In Acts 5:30-32, we read:
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are his witnesses of these things...
Except the writer lied. They were not witnesses to these things because they had re-created this ancient Joshua figure from Joshua ben Pandira who was recreated from earlier accounts and lore.

Re-created? So an earlier Joshua was hanged as well? And the raised up part is just creative license? I think it is a bit too convenient to arbitrarily decide that the coincidences are the truth and the contradictions are lies.

You're just playing a silly game of denial here. Joshua ben Pandira has been both confirmed and denied by Christians as the historical Jesus. One Christian writer, Epiphanius, made Pandira the grandfather of Jesus. The early Christian writers didn't blow it off as coincidence because they knew such dismissal simply won't stick and went through pains to prove Pandira was not Jesus only to be undermined by another Christian insisting Pandira WAS Jesus. So, quite obviously, they didn't know either. It can't just be blown off as coincidence in the public forum because that just smacks of denial.

DB Roy wrote: By the way, Krishna was also slain and hung from a tree.

This is what is known, in the vernacular, as a "coincidence". Did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln?

No, because it isn't true. I've been a Lincoln and a Civil War buff since about age 10 or so to this very day. I've read and own hundreds of books on both Lincoln and the Civil War and read most of them cover-to-cover. Never once have I come across anyone in Lincoln's administration with the name of Kennedy. I don't know who Kennedy's secretary was but Lincoln's secretary was a guy named John Hay who sticks in my mind because he once described Mary Lincoln as "a hellcat who grows more hellcatical with each passing day."

Now, if we had material showing that Krishna stories were copied wholesale in some community such as the Therapeuts, and that they worshipped some Joshua figure who was clearly re-capitulating Krishna, then that would be evidence.

That would be a big help, sure, but it isn't necessary. The idea that these cultures never met or traded is beyond ridiculous. I have a book on Vikings which has a photograph of a Buddha statue that has been in Scandinavia since the 8th century as proof that the Vikings traded with some far-off cultures. Did you know that when Krishna was an infant that King Kamsa wanted him killed after after voice from the sky warned him? That Krishna was the eighth child of Kamsa's sister, Devaki, and that Kamsa slew the first six newborns fearing they would overthrow him (the 7th, Balarama, escaped when a stillborn corpse was presented to Kamsa in his place)? When Krishna was born, a bright star called Rohini was seen in the sky. They gave Kamsa a girl child whom he could not kill because she was really a goddess in disguise. She slipped easily from Kamsa's grasp, laughed at him, and rose into the sky. Krishna's father meanwhile took his son across a river to be raised by cowherds at the behest of Vishnu. The rain fell hard and the river was flooded but the waters parted for the man and his child. This story appears in the Vedas which far precede the bible. Of course, this is the same story of Zeus. His father, Cronus, devoured his children fearing they would overthrow him so when Zeus was born they wrapped a stone in swaddling clothes and presented him to Cronus who devoured and Zeus was raised up in secret. But I'm sure you can prove these are mere coincidences or were copied from Christianity.

DB Roy wrote:Zecharia 3 and 6 and Ezra mention a Joshua who is high priest not a warrior. He was resisted by Satan, crowned a king, called the Branch (Messiah), and associated with seven eyes or stars (same as the son of man image in Revelation who holds seven stars in his hand). We know this is only retold lore from an older period because the writer himself attributes the story to one of the rebuilders of the temple.

It seems to me quite possible that the author of Revelations, who was more in a Philo tradition than a pre-Christ tradition, for sure, could borrow the image of the seven stars like Matthew used the image of the donkey and colt. It takes a serious stretch to make the priest Joshua in Zechariah into either the older Joshua re-told or into Jesus - the Branch seems to me to be clearly a second figure in both cases, though I am going by English translations.

The branch is the messiah. So you have Joshua who is a high priest (just as Jesus is in Hebrews) who was crowned a king (Christ means king) and who was called a messiah. Yep, what a stretch! and where do you get that the writer of Revelation wrote in the tradition of Philo??? The gospel of John, yes. Hebrews? Yes, but it's more a polemic against Philo's ideas. Do you mean that Revelation is Hellenistic? Well, sure it is, the NT is Hellenistic because that's audience it was written for. But Philo specifically? You got me with that one.

DB Roy wrote:In Jude 1:5-7 in the RSV, we read: 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Who is the he that Jude refers to in verse 5? Notice the footnote b. What does it read? I'll quote it for you verbatim:
"Jude 1:5 Ancient authorities read Jesus or the Lord or God"
Notice the importance of that footnote!! "Ancient authorities" actually used the word Jesus and the one who saved a people out of the land of Egypt and then destroyed those who did not believe!!!! Moreover, reading the entire passage, this Jesus is CLEARLY not historical and clearly placed chronologically amidst Old Testament events!!

Yes, it looks like in some "ancient authorities" (texts? what does that mean?) this rescue from Egypt is action attributed to Joshua. But I disagree with you in reading this as detaching Joshua from history - the cases are clearly meant as examples of disobedience and to some extent apostasy. It is not apparent that any of the other cases refer to actions of Joshua. In fact, your use of "clearly" puts you in a category with Richard Carrier as one who signals the introduction of a stretch of the imagination by claiming none is necessary.

My use of clearly means "clearly." So you believe this Jesus mentioned by Jude is not detaching him from history when he states, "And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day"? That might be historic to you but to me it's a lot of nonsense. I think you CLEARLY need to get your head examined if you think that isn't detaching Jesus from history. And what does the RSV mean by "ancient authorities"? They mean the oldest extant manuscripts.

DB Roy wrote:Then in the Sibylline Oracles, a Christian work, we read: "Now a certain excellent man shall come again from heaven...the best of the Hebrews, who once made the sun stand still." They don't mention him by name but it's clearly a reference to the Old Testament Joshua except we can now see how the OT author revised the story since Joshua didn't make the sun stand still but God did it for him. But here, Joshua himself did it AND he came from heaven!

So I looked up the Sibylline Oracles in Wikipedia, and learned that they were mostly about Greek and Roman myths or historical figures, plus some Judaism and Christianity, mostly linked to some Jewish or Christian theme which was then made use of.

It strikes me as much more likely that someone grabbed the sun standing still story and linked it in like manner, than that this represents some subterranean knowledge held in secret most of the time but that happened to surface in this isolated spot.

DB Roy wrote:In Mark 9:38, we read:John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us."
Then what Jesus was the man following? Now, you might respond that this man then was obviously not preaching Jesus Christ and so the two Jesuses are not the same. But in the next verse, Jesus himself says they are:
But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.…

What you are missing is that the person need not have been following anyone. The clear point of the story seems to be that the exorcist sought to use the power of the name of Jesus, which appears in a few other places as well.

DB Roy wrote: In 1 Corinthian 2:7-9, Paul states:
7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

It's odd enough that Paul is talking of esoteric wisdom lore but the phrase "rulers of this age" is a mistranslation and I believe willfully so. Paul's Greek phrase is: "archonton tou aionos" which actually means "powers of the aeon" which refers to a 2,160 year period or 1/12 of the Great Year 25,920 years--a single cycle of the precession of the earth. Every 2,160 years, we pass into a new aeon or age named after one the zodiac signs. Currently, we're supposed to be in Aquarius.

I ask you the same question I asked Robert Tulip - do we have this from sources at the time, or was it "realized" later?

I have seen Paul's "rulers of the age" references, and there is no obvious reason why these should not be taken either as earthly rulers (e.g. Romans) or spiritual powers, (e.g. demonic lords), or both. Paul wants his readers to know that there is hidden, non-material power at work, but it doesn't seem to matter much to him how it works - through military power, the love of money which turns out to be the root of all evil, or the flesh and its naughtiness. You are imposing a strong reading on this, but I don't see any reason to buy into that.

DB Roy wrote: The gospelic Jesus was unknown to Paul but he knows of one that was crucified by celestial powers and, as his authority, claims it is "hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages"--ancient wisdom lore.

I am willing to believe there was a lot of stuff hanging around in the underbrush of first century Judaism which Paul tapped into, as well as some Hellenistic mystery cult stuff, but from what we have of him this kind of reading is out on the margins. His view is built around a number of themes, such as spirit vs. flesh, which fit well enough with gnostic thought, but he is not pushing the esoteric wisdom but the savior and the Holy Spirit and the new life that is free from sin.

DB Roy wrote:What's odd is how Christians dismiss the evidence that is staring them in the face. The Jesus or Joshua figure is clearly very ancient. For one thing, he is the same Joshua of the Old Testament--Joshua son of Nun. Nun means "fish." And I'll point more parallels later. But it's equally clear this Joshua was taken out and dusted off and placed at numerous space-time locales over the centuries.

DB Roy wrote: But it's equally clear this Joshua was taken out and dusted off and placed at numerous space-time locales over the centuries. In the extra-Talmudic material, we find reference to Joshua ben Pandira, a miracle-worker who was stoned and hung from a tree in 71 BCE.

DB Roy wrote:In Acts 5:30-32, we read:

30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are his witnesses of these things...

Except the writer lied. They were not witnesses to these things because they had re-created this ancient Joshua figure from Joshua ben Pandira who was recreated from earlier accounts and lore.

DB Roy wrote:By the way, Krishna was also slain and hung from a tree.

DB Roy wrote:Zecharia 3 and 6 and Ezra mention a Joshua who is high priest not a warrior. He was resisted by Satan, crowned a king, called the Branch (Messiah), and associated with seven eyes or stars (same as the son of man image in Revelation who holds seven stars in his hand). We know this is only retold lore from an older period because the writer himself attributes the story to one of the rebuilders of the temple.

DB Roy wrote:In Jude 1:5-7 in the RSV, we read:

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day; 7 just as Sodom and Gomor′rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Who is the he that Jude refers to in verse 5? Notice the footnote b. What does it read? I'll quote it for you verbatim:

"Jude 1:5 Ancient authorities read Jesus or the Lord or God"

Notice the importance of that footnote!! "Ancient authorities" actually used the word Jesus and the one who saved a people out of the land of Egypt and then destroyed those who did not believe!!!! Moreover, reading the entire passage, this Jesus is CLEARLY not historical and clearly placed chronologically amidst Old Testament events!!

DB Roy wrote:In 1 Corinthian 2:7-9, Paul states:

7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."…

It's odd enough that Paul is talking of esoteric wisdom lore but the phrase "rulers of this age" is a mistranslation and I believe willfully so. Paul's Greek phrase is: "archonton tou aionos" which actually means "powers of the aeon" which refers to a 2,160 year period or 1/12 of the Great Year 25,920 years--a single cycle of the precession of the earth. Every 2,160 years, we pass into a new aeon or age named after one the zodiac signs. Currently, we're supposed to be in Aquarius.

DB Roy wrote:In Gnosticism, powers of the aeon are understood to be celestial powers not earthly emperors or kings or governors. So Paul is saying that Jesus was killed by powers of the universe which is what Mark tries to convey by having Jesus cast out so many demons from people--to demonstrate that these powers, these archons, were rampant in the world until such time as the Kingdom of God is established and that it is they who really are responsible for what happens to Jesus. Paul's Christ Jesus is at least a quasi-mythical star man or sun man. An ancient, ancient solar deity who is, in fact, called the Lord of Glory. The gospelic Jesus was unknown to Paul but he knows of one that was crucified by celestial powers and, as his authority, claims it is "hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages"--ancient wisdom lore.

youkrst wrote: 1. Identical Name: Yehoshua, "Yahweh is Salvation"
2. Identical Roles: Leader of Israel

3. Identical Mission: Peace
JOSHUA: "The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the Lord. Then Joshua made a treaty of peace with them to let them live, and the leaders of the assembly ratified it by oath." (Joshua 9:14-15)
JESUS: "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

4. Identical Number of Appointed Men: Twelve

c. Jesus twelve apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel:

d. Considering how families and friends tend to reincarnate together, perhaps the twelve apostles were reincarnations of the twelve rulers of the tribes of Israel.

s: Twelve Stones