• In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 616 on Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:47 pm

God and I, Me and the gods, what Religion means to Me

Engage in conversations about worldwide religions, cults, philosophy, atheism, freethought, critical thinking, and skepticism in this forum.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
Niall001
Stupendously Brilliant
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:00 am
20

Re: God and I

Unread post

I'd probably be option 2.
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17007
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3503 times
Been thanked: 1307 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Re: God Matters

Unread post

DissidentQuote:If we are trying to make sense of that from which all things arise from and return to, that mysterious abyss that contains all past, present, and future...then, yes, imagination is required.Well, fortunately, we're not.What exactly is "that from which all things arise from and return to?" Who told you or what made you think there is something that all things arise from and return to? You're starting with an assumption that isn't supported by empirical evidence. No wonder your conclusions are irrational. Tighten up your premises.What "mysterious abyss?" I guess your reasoning is that if you throw around enough vague terms and phrases the rest of us will get all confused, run in circles and throw our hands up in the air in defeat. So what is this abyss you speak of? And how can this abyss contain all past, present and future?Your comment was that if we are trying to make sense of "X" then "Y" follows. Fortunately, we are NOT trying to make sense of "X," as "X" is a vague generalization lacking any real substance and can really be called nothing more than a figment of your imagination. Quote:I am not arguing that this will conjure a deity into existence, but it will be a necessary step in deciding what is sacred, holy and divine about existence. So you admit that this nonsense won't make your deity suddenly pop into existence. Splendid. We agree on something.Now who the heck told you that we are trying to decide on what is sacred, holy and divine? Speak for yourself. How can anything be sacred, holy and divine if nothing supernatural exists? I'd like to know exactly what you mean by sacred, holy and divine. All three of these words pertain to the God concept. I don't accept the God concept as rational.Some of us are trying to determine whether or not a God even exists. That is what this thread appears to be discussing. We are NOT trying to discuss the assigned attributes of this deity, nor how humans communicate with this deity, nor how we should feel about this deity. Does this deity even exist? This is the 1st question that must be asked. People like you skip this question. You assume God exists and then casually meander on to contemplating all the other questions. Why not assume Santa Claus to exist? Reason tells you otherwise? Have faith Dissident. You employ reason when its convenient. Quote:Creativity, yes, that particular knack of the mind to bring new forms, structures, products and tools into existence. This Creativity is essential in increasing the value of individual lives and communal existence too. Fantastic Dissident. You've pointed out what a splendid thing creativity can be, but you've failed to show how creativity can support the claim that a deity exists. So creativity brings new forms, structures and tools into existence? Actually, creativity is what gets the ball rolling. It is our creative side that fuels us to action, but our creativity isn't an action in itself. But again.... you attempt to baffle people with bullshit. What does our creativity have to do with this subject? Who cares if creativity is essential to increasing the value of individual lives and communal existence? This is relevant how? Butter makes oatmeal taste yummy, but discussing butter in this thread is rather silly. Either your God exists or doesn't exist Dissident. Some people are creative and others lack this trait. Does God exist for the creative ones and cease to exist for the ones lacking creativity? What nonsense.Quote:This is not an issue of shaming you into conceding an argument- but shame on you if you think such an impoverished way to face the world is the only way to make sense of the God issue.Impoverished way to face the world? Who said I am facing the world without creativity? Again, here you employ the appeal to emotion fallacy. We are discussing whether or not a deity exists. I am facing THIS question scientifically, not emotionally. Objective reality is independent of my emotions, so I tend to try to remove them from the equation when analyzing objective reality. Want to discuss pottery, poetry or break-dancing? Then creativity should be included. We are discussing the God question, not EVERY question.Quote:...to make sense of the God issueHere is your problem in a nutshell. You want to make this an issue. God is not an issue. Either God exists or doesn't exist...period. Do we call gravity an issue? Again, you start with the premise that God exists, and then you run into all sorts of issues as you try to define his nature, origins, desires and plans.Quote:Frankly, Chris, you've yet to show any evidence of actually investigating what "God" means to the thousands of traditions, practices, texts, prayers, meditations, artwork, dances, celebrations, rituals, symbols that point to such a mystery.The burden of proof lies with the affirmative claimant. I am rejecting your claim that God exists as an unsupported hypothesis. How should I investigate the claim that God exists? God can be found by reading religious texts? ...by hanging out with people caught up in a religious frenzy? ...by popping peyote buttons? ...by dancing naked around a fire in the woods while crying hysterically and feeling Gods love? ...by bowing my head and attempting to talk to a being before I even know whether or not this beings exists? ...by meditating? ...by staring at a candle until my mind plays tricks on me and I hallucinate? ...by staring at artwork and seeing something so deep and penetrating that it becomes obvious something supernatural is behind it all? I have an even better idea Dissident. First, you SHOW me why you believe in a deity and then we can sing and dance and stare at shit all night long, all the while enjoying the pleasures of communal living, hallucinatory drugs, and love and happiness. And then you can take a swing at me and see where that leads you.Chris "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson MandellaEdited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/13/04 4:55 pm
amd2003

Re: God Matters

Unread post

I am getting involved in this against my better judgement We build new knowledge by building on to existing knowledge. Our existing knowledge tells us that animals and minerals, and modern major generals make up the world (and also that animals and modern major generals evolved from minerals). Most accounts of god are exaggeration of humans. If our dad is kind, helps us to the extent he knows and has power, we make up a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god. This is a mind blowing exaggeration. Such a creature has never been seen. The events of the world belie the existance of such a creature. It exists about as much as Santa Claus and tooth fairy.Most of us are raised beleiving in a god. It is hard to get this conditioning extinguished. A small number invent a god on their own (without such a beleif being shoved down their throats when they are too young to fight back). This has the advantage of simple minded answers.amd Edited by: amd2003 at: 10/13/04 5:18 pm
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: God Matters

Unread post

"Some people, in fact, more than a few, have a very difficult time digesting the concept that the universe is not an impersonal vacum of emotionless, thoughtless, careless space...but a wondrously personal You that seeks partnership, relationship, intimacy, even love."I've digested that concept with ease. Not only does it not feel right, but it's entirely illogical. The opposite of that quote is true for Dissident.Emotions have everything to do with experiencing the world around us.Emotions have nothing to do with analytical reasoning and logic.I think there's a distinction that must be made. There is no way to debate that someone 'feels' God's existance. I know friends that 'felt' the existance of the Lochness monster. Emotions are at times illogical. Illogic is fallible.Personifying anything that isn't human is ridiculous if used in a logical debate. "My computer thinks you're stupid, and he's smarter than you." Personifying anything that isn't human works when using analogies as an explanatory tool, but not as a debate tool. There is no truth to it. Is that a fact? No, but I challenge you to find a person who thinks it's likely that the tree in my front yard wants a voice so it can say hello to me everyday.
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: God Matters

Unread post

Quote:What exactly is "that from which all things arise from and return to?" Who told you or what made you think there is something that all things arise from and return to? You're starting with an assumption that isn't supported by empirical evidence. No wonder your conclusions are irrational. Tighten up your premises.This is key Chris to your confusion: the word "God" has many meanings, employed by multiple folks in a wide variety of ways. Using the term to refer to "that from which all things arise and return to" is fairly common in multiple traditions...something you would be aware of had you bothered to examine the subject before so adamantly rejecting it. Which, by the way, is the height of anti-empiricism.As for "what exactly this is" is precisely the issue. I am making a case that challenges us to address this imaginatively, creatively, and critically, using as many tools as possible in the investigation. You reject it outright without having examined any of it. Great scientific approach Chris.Quote:What "mysterious abyss?" I guess your reasoning is that if you throw around enough vague terms and phrases the rest of us will get all confused, run in circles and throw our hands up in the air in defeat. So what is this abyss you speak of? And how can this abyss contain all past, present and future?Again, had you bothered to maybe address even the most basic of materials on the subject of God and Religion, a simple cursory read perhaps, you would find God referred to in many ways as 'mysterious abyss'. It is one way to describe the great distance in time and space that we see when we look out into the stars, or down into the atom...the fathomless depths of dark matter, the infinite sequence of numbers, the inifnitesimal distinctions within the sub-atomic universes...these are components of existence that elicit awe and wonder, often terror and dread...for you, they seem to remain silent. And 'how it can contain all past, present, and future' is an excellent question...one which I can only answer with "quite wondrously".Quote:Your comment was that if we are trying to make sense of "X" then "Y" follows. Fortunately, we are NOT trying to make sense of "X," as "X" is a vague generalization lacking any real substance and can really be called nothing more than a figment of your imagination. Unfortunately, you've made no attempt, in any context, to make sense of what 'X' means, how it is used, what form it takes, and how to interpret these meanings and forms. You don't know what you're rejecting, and I can't exactly explain what I'm affirming. The difference, as I see it, is that you reject it outright- with no attempt to examine the data; and I affirm it with trust, knowing the complex, incomplete, and not fully conclusive nature of the information.Quote:Now who the heck told you that we are trying to decide on what is sacred, holy and divine? Speak for yourself. How can anything be sacred, holy and divine if nothing supernatural exists? I'd like to know exactly what you mean by sacred, holy and divine. All three of these words pertain to the God concept. I don't accept the God concept as rational.Well, it seems that anybody even remotely, slightly, vaguely familiar with the vast libraries full of the thousands upon thousands of titles referring to the subject (unlike yourself) would see the necessity of making sense of these terms. So, I'm not actually speaking for myself, I'm just examining the field as it has developed over time, exploring the data as it has been discussed by many more than myself- folks who don't share my particular religious or faith preferences, and those who do.I'll start a new thread to give these terms (Sacred, Holy, and Divine) the space they deserve....perhaps this will be the first time you've studied the terms yourself?Quote:Some of us are trying to determine whether or not a God even exists. That is what this thread appears to be discussing. We are NOT trying to discuss the assigned attributes of this deity, nor how humans communicate with this deity, nor how we should feel about this deity.Well, Chris, you seem to have a need to speak in the Royal "We" in this exchange, making to sure to include your perspective with a group of "us". As I see it, if we want to determine whether or not God exists, we need to know what the term means...where it comes from, how it's been used, its evolution, application, many meanings and the varieites of ways people have approached, employed, and determined its function and use. Why this is so difficult for you to accept, is beyond me...unless, it plainly exposes how little you really know about the subject, and just how ridiculous it makes your blatant rejection sound: I mean, if it goes to show that you don't have the most remedial graspp of the issue, but are so adamantly opposed to it- well, that speaks for itself.Quote:Does this deity even exist? This is the 1st question that must be asked. People like you skip this question. You assume God exists and then casually meander on to contemplating all the other questions.No, the first question is "What do you mean by this Deity...this particular one...and not another...not that one...or that one...or that other one over there" and then "Why start with this meaning of Deity, and not that one, or that one, or that one over there". People like you know next to nothing of the complex world of this discussion, get frustrated when it doesn't fit into your poorly researched universe, and then strut proudly that you've debunked Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy!Quote:It is our creative side that fuels us to action, but our creativity isn't an action in itself.I don't for the life of me know what you mean by this- or its point in the discussion.Quote:Does God exist for the creative ones and cease to exist for the ones lacking creativity? What nonsense.I hesitate to agree with this, because it would paint you with an all-too-accurate brush. Dull your mind to the wonders of existence, silence your creative drive, and yes, God will probably be dead to you...what that means to God is another matter. The "what if..." of imagination, the "try to envision if you will..." of probing intellect, the "allow your creativity full rein for a moment..." are worthless activities to you- but, I'm not sure where that places you in matters pertaining to God.Quote:We are discussing whether or not a deity exists. I am facing THIS question scientifically, not emotionally. Objective reality is independent of my emotions, so I tend to try to remove them from the equation when analyzing objective reality. Want to discuss pottery, poetry or break-dancing? Then creativity should be included. We are discussing the God question, not EVERY question.You are facing the question NOT having studied a lick of the data referring to the term you so adamantly reject. This is an emotional choice of yours, not scientific and hardly rational. Had you any time in the field of say, theology or religious studies or history or religions or art and religion, and it is a lively, exciting, growing, and wondrously vibrant field, you would see that you there is no 'proving that God exists' without first making sense of what the term means. You are emotionally opposed to this, irrationally attached to your adamant rejection of a subject you confess to knowing very little about. You would, had you even a trace of curiosity, discovered that the "God" issue is part and parcel of everything- it is not something separate from the world of art, music, dance, law, ethics, family, death, diet, etc...humans address and define their god/God via many paths and elements of their lives. Why this escapes you, escapes me.Quote:First, you SHOW me why you believe in a deity and then we can sing and dance and stare at shit all night long, all the while enjoying the pleasures of communal living, hallucinatory drugs, and love and happiness. And then you can take a swing at me and see where that leads you.I've given thirty posts on this board describing what God means to me, the value of Faith in such a God, and the worth it adds to my life specifically and the world in general. I've also made it clear on multiple occassions that I am not compelled that everyone adopt my relationship to God, or understand it as I do...I am willing to allow folks that freedom and individual integrity. Unlike yourself, who is committed to define for all persons, in all places and at all times who or what God can or cannot be.Maybe I should just give you a big sloppy kiss.
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: God Matters

Unread post

Quote:Emotions have everything to do with experiencing the world around us.Emotions have nothing to do with analytical reasoning and logic.So, much like so many on this board, the split continues...the chasm between head and heart, mind and body, emotion and reason gets even wider...and, of course, it's clear which one you place on top. This is the 'maysanthopy' I referred to earlier- the terrible distrust of the body and emotions and feelings that so many on this board are proud to call "Scientific".Quote:Personifying anything that isn't human is ridiculous if used in a logical debate.Perhaps, as it might also be a wondrous way to better relate to the earth and its inhabitents using relational tools of empathy, care, compassion and love...I suppose these don't belong in logical debate either?Quote:I challenge you to find a person who thinks it's likely that the tree in my front yard wants a voice so it can say hello to me everyday. It might scream bloody terror at the poisons we are filling our air, water and soil with...something that may be slowed, altered, or even ceased altogther with an attitude that saw the mineral, animal, plant, cosmic and abysmal in life as a You that sincerely hungered for intimate contact- as opposed to clear-cutting forest destroying wasteful disregard for inanimate tree-stuff.
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: God Matters

Unread post

Quote:This has the advantage of simple minded answers.Much like the one that says "all that is is either mineral, animal or modern major generals".
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17007
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3503 times
Been thanked: 1307 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Re: God Matters

Unread post

What data? "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson Mandella
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: God and I, Me and the gods, what Religion means to Me

Unread post

Quote:----------------------------------Emotions have everything to do with experiencing the world around us.Emotions have nothing to do with analytical reasoning and logic.----------------------------------"So, much like so many on this board, the split continues...the chasm between head and heart, mind and body, emotion and reason gets even wider...and, of course, it's clear which one you place on top. This is the 'maysanthopy' I referred to earlier- the terrible distrust of the body and emotions and feelings that so many on this board are proud to call "Scientific"."Absolutely incorrect. You misapprehend my intent, let me clarify. I treasure both reason and emotion. In a way they are like ying and yang. Not to downsize the importance of other virtues, but these two are very important. People use these both all the time during a normal day. Now, what you fail to realize is that there are times when only one of the two are used. Emotion is used in the case of your love for your wife. Reason is used in figuring things out. Reason is also used in debate.Quote:----------------------------------------------Personifying anything that isn't human is ridiculous if used in a logical debate.----------------------------------------------"Perhaps, as it might also be a wondrous way to better relate to the earth and its inhabitents using relational tools of empathy, care, compassion and love...I suppose these don't belong in logical debate either?"Correct where the earth is concerned. Those are personifications.Quote:----------------------------------------------I challenge you to find a person who thinks it's likely that the tree in my front yard wants a voice so it can say hello to me everyday.----------------------------------------------"It might scream bloody terror at the poisons we are filling our air, water and soil with...something that may be slowed, altered, or even ceased altogther with an attitude that saw the mineral, animal, plant, cosmic and abysmal in life as a You that sincerely hungered for intimate contact- as opposed to clear-cutting forest destroying wasteful disregard for inanimate tree-stuff."That is an equivocation. Do you have a true answer? Edited by: Interbane at: 10/13/04 7:03 pm
scrumfish
Sophomore
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:27 am
19
Location: Outside of Pizza Delivery Range
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 39 times
United States of America

Re: God Matters

Unread post

Dissident Heart wrote:Quote:Who are you to say that great and wonderous expanse we call "Nature" isn't longing with, at and for us, along side us...seeking intimacy, trust and love from us, and from the rest of all that we see, and don't see?Dissident, who are you to say that it does?
Post Reply

Return to “Religion & Philosophy”