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Forever 
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Post Re: Forever
From nothing, something. That's more natural than nothing into nothing.



Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:53 pm
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Post Re: Forever
ant wrote:
As a side note: I seriously doubt Plato's Realm of Perfect Forms exists on the space station.


who said it does?

ant wrote:
That was a nice try by Yahweh's step child though.


do you get off on insulting me ant?

:troll:

i wish you would just stick to substance and refrain from the personal needling.

but by all means if you want to cement your position as booktalk's resident prick then carry on.



Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:28 pm
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Post Re: Forever
The nature of time has been an obsession for me since I bought Being and Time by Martin Heidegger back in 1983, and then wrote my MA thesis on it.

'Eternal' is a word with several meanings, as I noted above in looking at the different ideas of permanence, values and logic. Etymologically, 'e-ternal' means 'outside time' or 'unchanging'. Mathematical relationships, because by definition they do not change, are therefore intrinsically eternal. Then the problem arises of how ideas exist. A good book on this topic is Is God a Mathematician? by Mario Livio, which points out that mathematical relationships are discovered not invented, so have independent real existence from human thought about them.

Plato discussed the relation between change and stability in his dialogue The Timaeus. Stability is always the same or identical. Change involves constant difference. For Plato, the model of identity and difference is the X in the sky formed by the unchanging path of the Milky Way Galaxy and the constantly changing path of the solar ecliptic, the path of the sun and planets.

'Forever' depends on your reference frame. In one sense diamonds are forever.


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Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:29 am
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Post Re: Forever
Lmao. Fiiiight! :D Are you going to take that Ant??? ::: stirring the pot::::

Arg, time to crack open Plato. Be back when I get done reading it. Tulip is getting older and all the drugs he did back in the 80's for Australia's army experiments have left him both highly intelligent and highly super crazy. All information must be confirmed by interpretation of sane individuals. Brb



Last edited by President Camacho on Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:55 am
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Post Re: Forever
OMG, Tulip, I stumbled on the perfect definition of you my friend.

Robert Tulip: Marsupial which seeks scientific truth combined with mythical truth in which great spiritual truths can be found.

How spot on is that? Honestly. It was right here in my translation of Timaeus.

I'll leave you the poem in the introduction as well. I know you like that.

I saw Eternity the other night,
Like a great Ring of pure and endless light,
All calm, as it was bright;
And round beneath it, Time in hours, days, years,
Driven by the spheres
Like a vast shadow moved. . .



Last edited by President Camacho on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:08 am
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Post Re: Forever
thanks for the heads up on the Timaeus, i've been digging Pierre Grimes' series on Timaeus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnqq0ohx ... AEC7ECD2B5

Pierre breaks it down well IMO

and that lead to some Epicurus

damn these dudes of yore rock !



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Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:17 am
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Post Re: Forever
the breakdown of father, mother, son from Timaeus that Pierre covers there is such a doppelganger for the christian Father, Mary, Christ thing that they seem obvious motif doubles to me.

you find this motif repetition by the score when you start reading old texts, everything old is new again. :)

in fact the "theology" in the Timaeus seems such a vast improvement over "modern monotheisms" that i mourn the loss.

it's like the crowd is at the nickelback concert when Hendrix is playing to a few dozen round the corner, lucky sods :D



Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:07 am
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Post Re: Forever
wow! how platonic is the NT!!

when you've got verses like

Quote:
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


and

Quote:
You however are to be complete in goodness, as your Heavenly Father is complete.


that is some platonic shit right there!! :D

i think i remember Pierre saying something like

every thinking christian should become a platonist

ahhh here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KdmVe-uMkE

why thinking christians should become platonists.



Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:57 am
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Post Re: Forever
President Camacho wrote:
Lmao. Fiiiight! :D Are you going to take that Ant??? ::: stirring the pot::::

Arg, time to crack open Plato. Be back when I get done reading it. Tulip is getting older and all the drugs he did back in the 80's for Australia's army experiments have left him both highly intelligent and highly super crazy. All information must be confirmed by interpretation of sane individuals. Brb


Perhaps I am only mad in the sense that the divine Plato is crazy? The consensus view of modern science is that Platonic idealism is delusional, even though Plato is at the root of philosophy and science. I am interested in a paradigm shift, which naturally looks insane on the surface to those who are committed to the current false delusional dominant paradigm. Plato's theory of eternity is one typical topic that sends some people into emotional meltdown. And Camacho is making up the incredible hulk comparison. I have never been a part of army experiments.


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Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:58 pm
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Post Re: Forever
He had to sign papers stating he would deny any involvement in said experiments, I'm sure. Either that or they erased his memory and we have to find a way of protecting ourselves just in case they trigger him.. like a one man sleeper cell. Sleeping Tulip.

Timaeus is little like anything else I've read of Plato. It resembles his other dialogues but it's fanciful and requires leaps of faith. Where the dialectic of Socrates chips away at assumption and seeks to prove a truth through keeping what can be proven through discourse and discarding what does not hold water, this dialogue has Timaeus talking about accepting tales which are probable AND INQUIRING NO FURTHER.

I'm accustomed to Socrates digging for answers and not being comfortable with statements merely because they sound truthful. He tested each statement for it's veracity by throwing the full weight of his intellect against it. Here there seems no such effort. I question just how old Plato was when he wrote this. Old men have a habit of becoming spiritual the older they get and for a poet, the condition is probably more acute.

Plato lacks common sense for his time as well. His whole theory of splitting up society in a hierarchical system comparable to his beloved Spartan constitution but run by philosophers was blasted apart by a level headed pupil of his. Socrates was a warrior who fought in multiple battles for Athens. Plato was no wimp, either... but something tells me Socrates kept him grounded and that the longer he was out of the picture the more he allowed his poetic side to dominate his thinking.

I'm about half way through. I'll let you know what I really think when I'm done.



Last edited by President Camacho on Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Forever
Quote:
I am interested in a paradigm shift, which naturally looks insane on the surface to those who are committed to the current false delusional dominant paradigm.


If there is to be any paradigm shift there must first be a consensus of acknowledgement that a specific anomaly (or plural) has resisted the scientific community's "puzzle solving" efforts.

What exactly are you referring to here and how does it related to Plato's Perfect Realm of Forms?
How would Plato's "Theory of Eternity" solve whatever natural anomaly it is you are going to setforth for us here to consider?

All this talk has such a fantasy-like tone to it, if you ask me.
I could call Plato's Perfect Realm of Forms heaven with a capital 'H"

By the way, what evidence do you have for the existence of Plato's Perfect Realm of Forms?
This works both ways, Robert. If I need empirical evidence for God, you need evidence for Plato's PERFECT Realm of Forms.

Thanks



Last edited by ant on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:00 pm
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Post Re: Forever
I don't think we can ask the question, because the human mind is not really capable of understanding the terms. Forever means eternity, and what is that exactly? If time is infinite, then events would then seem to also be infinite. No given object, as far as we know, when thrown onto a certain course, will carry one forever without some sort of wobble or gyration.

Booktalk, for example, seems a pretty stable type of discussion forum, but, already I'd lay money, some subtle modifications of the internet, of popular fashion, or of personal inclinations are already making their slow molecular way to inducing future change.

The infinite- or even near infinite- let's call it infinite lite, can boggle the mind. In one version of our near future, for example, the Ant may repent, become a nice guy, and produce tenable posts. In others, he may go over the top, and we will read about his lurid deeds in the media. In yet another version of our infinite lite future, Robert may remember his harrowing experiences with the Australian Army. In others, he won't, or perhaps will only confide in his analyst, who of course would be sworn to confidentiality by professional ethics. Of course, on some futures, professional ethics would not mean the same thing.....

It's enough to make one's head spin. Just give me a minute here to get another brandy....................

Yes, that's better. As humans, we tend to always see things on our own scale, but when they get too big (or too small) then they just become abstractions. They are talking points that we have about the same knowledge of as the internal nuclear interchanges on the distant star Sigma AC3571. A star that would have different interchanges in some of our theoretical futures, and in some others, "nuclear" would be completely beside the point.

We can't really talk about forever. If I had a vote though, I think I would vote for forever, whatever that may entail, over the competing candidates.


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Post Re: Forever
:lol:

Plato sticks his ideas firmly in Timeaus' mouth. At least he saves Socrates the humiliation of letting such fanciful ideas escape his own. Plato is playing with the Greek idea of Gods and cosmogony here - step aside Hesiod.

For Plato the idea of eternity is that eternity is all things. It is set. It is unchanging. Time is just a moving picture of eternity. The days and nights, the motions of the planets... All these things are there so that you can have a timepiece.

I really can't believe how hokey Timaeus is. I've thumbed through some of the other dialogues. I'll have to read the statesman next... Plato seems to want to incorporate math and god in his philosophy and I have a HUGE problem with that. Instead of trying to find a philosophy which practically and honestly benefits mankind as a brother, he has instead gone in the direction of a tyrant - attempting to use his intellect as a weapon against uneducated and superstitious men. It shouldn't be the affairs of men to figure out god - more than just because God does not exist but because it's all to easy to use supposed knowledge of him as a perverted cultural weapon. Plato is being intellectually dishonest by presupposing the origin of something like God by making blanket statements without proof - by exceeding his education and intellectual pursuits but yet incorporating these other fields of science into a cosmogony in an effort to give it some kind of mask of superior knowledge, respectability, authority, grandeur, and awe. I always have problems with solutions that don't show you how the answer was reached. This dialogue is ridiculous.



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Post Re: Forever
President Camacho wrote:
This dialogue is ridiculous.


I, on the other hand, quite like it :D

might there not be a hidden gem or two in there somewhere that have escaped your mining Prez? (rhetorical question)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOE1m4Nu ... E9DCC50C18

i can well relate to your viewpoint though and the issues you raise, but i can't help it, i love the old buzzard :lol:

Quote:
This dialogue is ridiculous.


:lol: well, plenty more fish in the sea :)

etudiant wrote:
We can't really talk about forever. If I had a vote though, I think I would vote for forever, whatever that may entail, over the competing candidates.


yeah, me too.

reminded me of Buzz Lightyear, infinity - and beyond :D

and this plaintive cry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVvb3MS57yk



Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:50 am
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Post Re: Forever
Things of this nature are just not my can of beer. What attracts you to this particular dialogue? (It's more of a speech than a conversation).

Here are some additional things which lost me.

He who lived well returns to their appointed star but he who doesn't comes back as a woman. If you're a bad girl then you come back as a brute until you finally repent, live rationally, and get the revolutions of your internal spheres in order. As you know there can be absolutely no way to live well and good, in fact even achieving any semblance of knowledge or humanity is impossible if your inner spheres aren't revolving as they're supposed to.

Thank you Plato.... I knew there was something not quite right with me... it's my inner circles. I should have known. Maybe I'm just not getting it as usual. I have an impossibly hard time with religious philosophy and metaphysics.

how is it, in the same dialogue, Plato derides others for providing false information that they can't back up by facts and yet he does the exact same thing. His only defense is that it's probable. That has been the main weakness of truth through dialectic but there is not even any dialectic here - there's no attempt to test the assertion and he doesn't show how reached such conclusions. It's a purely religious and fictional text set as Fact and provided by a man of enormous intellectual supremacy... There's danger here.



Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:03 am
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