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Faith

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Interbane

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Re: Faith...again

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"I've argued that it is more about acting upon a trust in uncertain data...acting on incomplete, imperfect, inconclusive, and conflicting information. And I've tried to show how this process impacts all of us, especially when dealing with the most pressing and important decisions in our lives.Thus, it is not simply an intellectual assertion to a set of facts (rightly or wrongly)...it is a commited choice to act upon infromation that is not completely compelling, but personally valuable."I agree. My definition was the reason you commit to that choice. Wanting to believe in something may have it's roots in that 'something' being personally valuable. That leads to believing in false information and belief traps. Those aren't good.
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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Disident, not that your last post wasn't interesting, but what exactly was in response to? Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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I think it was a response directed at me, but in what form I'm not sure. In that case, maybe I should clarify an angle of thought that best presents both sides of this argument. It is about focus.Let me use another analogy to explain this. Consider this thread on faith being analogous to a painting by a famous painter. We are trying to gather information about the painters motivation for painting this specific painting. In Dissident's case, I see him zooming in and analyzing different brush strokes and internal painting techniques. These are a part of the painting, no doubt. However, to better understand the painter(this thread,) you need to zoom out and take in everything as a whole. Take your mental focus lens and zoom out a little bit.My arguments on faith are placed with all of humanity in mind. There is nothing wrong with picking out specifics to use as examples, but don't lose sight of the whole picture. Maintain your ability to focus / zoom in / zoom out.
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Interbane

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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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"My arguments on faith are placed with all of humanity in mind. There is nothing wrong with picking out specifics to use as examples, but don't lose sight of the whole picture. Maintain your ability to focus / zoom in / zoom out.""Furthermore, I am hoping to explore different kinds of Faith- as opposed to broad-brushed reductionism that misses all of the complex and subtle, and not so subtle nuances of human thinking and behavior."Good thinking. Being stuck in zoom out mode is bad also, as you miss the specifics, which add to the whole. Just be sure to zoom out after discussing the specifics... otherwise you could examine the painting so close that without realizing it, you start examining the wall.Back to the topic though. Are you saying that the idea behind Totalitarian Faith is that there is a persuading force that compels you to believe in one thing or another, and that it originates from humans? That's common sense I think. Or do you mean it in a very extreme sense? I'm often harrassed by religious zealots when I stop at a red light at certain intersections. They walk out into the street with fliers. I usually refuse the fliers. One time, an old man said that if I refuse the words he is trying to give to me, I will be condemned and will go to hell(or something very similar.)I agree with you on Totalitarian Faith. It seems that everytime I go to church, they attempt to impress upon me the fact that if I do not listen to what they say and take the word of God as truth that I will go to hell. "Believe in what I believe in, or you will go to hell!" Edited by: Interbane at: 10/18/04 5:15 pm
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Dissident Heart

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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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I am not directing this piece "Totalitarian Faith" at anyone in particular, although there may be some for whom it speaks directly regardless of my intent. I am simply offering more to the discussion, hoping to mesh out the issues and find greater elucidation on the subject.Furthermore, I am hoping to explore different kinds of Faith- as opposed to broad-brushed reductionism that misses all of the complex and subtle, and not so subtle nuances of human thinking and behavior.I am of the opinion that human psychology and cognitive development leaves room for multiple approaches to knowing, making sense of and communicating meaning in life...and in some cases, this process can be rooted in an attitude that thrives upon domination and supression, on control and punishment...a type of sado/masochistic impulse that colors the whole of one's relationships and allegiences.
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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Quote:Are you saying that Totalitarian Faith is a persuading force that compels you to believe in one thing or another, and that it originates from humans?I'm not sure from where it originates, but I estimate it has something to do with fear, resentment, and the longing to belong. Within individuals it can spring from any number of traumatic events in the course of development that scar those very precious threads of intimacy and trust. The person plagued with Totalitarian Faith is obsessed with a particular kind of relationship that is thereby duplicated in all interactions- it is a relationship, as I mentioned, that feeds on the hunger to dominate and appease. It is a Faith in that it colors all accompanying issues of trust and contract and allegience and ties that bind. Faith, is at core, the fundamental attitude that we bring to issues of trust, contract, allegience and ties that bind. It is that act of will that reaches out a hand for connection and comrardery...it is always incomplete, partial, flawed, and burdened with the psychological histories of trauma and tragedy that all humans carry. Faith is the fundamental trust that relationships are possible, that contracts are legitimate, that allegiences and communion with others is worth the effort.Totalitarian Faith mobilizes individuals into allegiences that serve only domination or submission- are devoid of trust, and rely upon the threat of punishment or the bribery of reward...and are always a matter of force. Thus, the reliance upon Power as the bottom line.Not truth, not beauty, not love..but Power.
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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Disident, thanks for clearing that up. It seems obvious now, but at the time, I was somewhat confusted.I used to take piano classes in a convent school when I was younger. There was a painting on the wall and beneath the caption 'truth is love'At the time, I thought that they'd written the quote down incorrectly. I thought that it was meant to say 'love is true' or something along those lines. But in later years, I think I finally understood what the caption meant. It's impossible to know anything for certain about this world. I said earlier that we don't have a starting point in life. We don't know where to begin our search for truth. But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea that Love is our starting point in life. Love is the one thing that we do not doubt. When you love (platonic rather than romantic) someone, you know it to be true.Let everything follow from there. Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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That's interesting, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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Quote:It is a Faith in that it colors all accompanying issues of trust and contract and allegience and ties that bind. Faith, is at core, the fundamental attitude that we bring to issues of trust, contract, allegience and ties that bind. It is that act of will that reaches out a hand for connection and comrardery...it is always incomplete, partial, flawed, and burdened with the psychological histories of trauma and tragedy that all humans carry. Faith is the fundamental trust that relationships are possible, that contracts are legitimate, that allegiences and communion with others is worth the effort.See now I have to dissent here. I am a very welcoming person. i always keep my door open to anyone willing to be open enough to interact with me. I base my 'trust, contracts, allegience and ties that bind' on my respect for my fellow humans and the addage of treating others as you would like to be. I do not have faith in any religion or belief system based on any Dogma.What I find is that when a person 'of faith' learns of my outlook on life and my total rejection of faith (blind or otherwise), it is I that become the outcast. It seems that these loving children of God(s) cannot overcome their reliance on faith enought to break and see that faith is not a pre-requisite to being a decent human being. The most closed minded and judgemental people I know are people 'of faith'...generally speaking.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. PI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Dissident Heart

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Re: Totalitarian Faith

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Quote:I base my 'trust, contracts, allegience and ties that bind' on my respect for my fellow humans and the addage of treating others as you would like to be. I do not have faith in any religion or belief system based on any Dogma.Welcome back Mr. P.!I think you've packed a good deal in this small response. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions:In the face of so much wikedness, arrogance, brutality and ignorance exhibited by your fellow humans- what makes you consider them so trustworthy? Likewise, what makes to think these fellow humans want to be treated as you like to be treated? Why should your particular personal pleasure or value system carry a universal decree of acceptability- such that it can direct an ethical guideline for treating others?I am willing to guess that at the bottom of your answers will be a great deal of trust in a large amount of uncertainty, incompleteness, opinion and belief...and it is Dogma that keeps you afloat in the midst of such lack of knowledge. Quote:What I find is that when a person 'of faith' learns of my outlook on life and my total rejection of faith (blind or otherwise), it is I that become the outcast. It seems that these loving children of God(s) cannot overcome their reliance on faith enought to break and see that faith is not a pre-requisite to being a decent human being. The most closed minded and judgemental people I know are people 'of faith'...generally speaking.I wouldn't deny you or anyone the great challenge to be a decent human being...and I would welcome whatever suggestions and tools you might employ for the journey. Of course, I happen to have Faith that human dignity is worth the effort, even if the evidence is not always on my side, or even contrary...and that occasionally we might just as well eradicate the whole damn parasitic mess we call "Humanity" off the face of the Planet, and do the rest of the fragile ecosystem a favor...I have Faith that my fellow humans are worth the effort to love them- even if sometimes I don't want to, or they simply aren't terribly lovable.Welcome back.
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