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Exodus not history?

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youkrst

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Exodus not history?

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http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus
Mainstream historical consensus

Despite being regarded in Judaism as the primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the 8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the then‐current battle for territory against Egypt.[2]

Archaeologists from the 19th century onward were actually surprised not to find any evidence whatsoever for the events of Exodus. By the 1970s, archaeologists had largely given up regarding the Bible as any use at all as a field guide.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/archeology.html
Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, with archaeology historian Neil Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text."

"The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom."

Jerusalem was essentially a cow town, not the glorious capital of an empire. These findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even
who'd a thunk it :-D

yeah who'd a thunk it

yehuda thunk it, i guess i won't hold my breath waiting for an apology :-D

Oops, I thought I was posting this in the belief section.
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Flann 5
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Re: Exodus not history?

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While archaeological corroboration for the Exodus does seem to be scarce,I'm not sure there is a total absence of it.

Scholars seem to differ in their dating of these events from the bible and sometimes in relation to geography.If archaeologists have not dug up everything and they've only excavated a fraction of possible sites who is to say that they won't in time?

As a caution I would just mention that historically sceptics and liberal biblical scholars have dismissed biblical accounts of historical events, people and places recorded in the bible out of hand.
However, embarrassingly for them over decades and even centuries archaeological discoveries have vindicated the biblical history so discounted.
Here archaeologist John Bloom gives a general outline of the scope of archaeology and a few examples of finds that are quite striking in corroborating biblical history and confounding the assumptions of sceptical scholars.
A slight irritation here is the failure of the camera operator to pan to the exhibits so I'm afraid that at least will require faith to accept!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b0e1ULu57w

Here's a lengthy film on the search for archaeological evidence for the Exodus history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnMwW-GAKvA
Last edited by Flann 5 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Interbane

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Re: Exodus not history?

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You really have to stop relying on youtube to support your beliefs Flann. Don't you see the issues? I mean, if you want to be confident that you believe true things, don't rely on youtube.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
youkrst

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Re: Exodus not history?

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though i did enjoy the John Bloom vid

i watched it and thought of quite a few things to say, some of which were unusually succinct for me.

but this morning i listened to "diamond girl" and "if you could read my mind"

now i'm so in love with being alive i can barely string two words together.

1 sec.... see if i can recall...

oh yeah

John (who is impossible not to like) seems to miss the point that mythology commonly has historical figures woven into it.

i remember A.K. Coomaraswamy i think it was relating the frustration of some scholars when they saw someone just updating, yes changing, all the names of kings in a myth, they complained "you can't do that!" but the indian was completely unperturbed, "doesn't matter, just updating to keep it current"

so that even if one finds an artifact that mentions a character that the bible also mentions it doesn't indicate that the doctrines of one's faith are reasonable.

apologists are so narrow in focus, they get an argument going and forget to step back and take a wider view, a wider view would of course prove fatal to their error, the error they know as truth. So it all ends up being an excercise in suring up the faith rather than seeking the truth, all of it, including the bits Jesus "I am the truth" wouldn't like, and YHWH would go bananas and make you eat your kids and friends or one of his many ingenious punishments... "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" "well it might hurt you more" :-D

but i would take JB over WLC any day of the week.

there were many other major mistakes in JB's reasoning but as i said i'm too full of a different energy to be effectively arguing today. Tomorrow however :mrgreen:

oh yeah, JB's inability to see that isaiah 53 is about israel and that jesus was simply retrofitted was tough to watch.
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Exodus not history?

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Please see my comments on Moses and Exodus at http://www.booktalk.org/book-review-did ... 17823.html

I went to the Exodus movie and was appalled by the propaganda message of jews good egyptians evil, including the depiction of jews building the pyramids.

No mention of Moses for 500 years after it supposedly happened = Exodus is myth.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exodus not history?

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Perhaps the most accurate take on Exodus is by Eddie Izzard in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rGc7JwEXH0 :lol:

A bit more expanded take... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnZlJMl4J8
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Re: Exodus not history?

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I think archaeologists like Bloom who are Christian acknowledge the scarcity of archaeological findings for the Exodus.
It's important to have realistic expectations about what reasonably be might be found after such a long time. Archaeological research is ongoing and a work in progress.

As I said the history of biblical criticism and scepticism itself is a cautionary tale, and I think Bloom makes this point well,in connection with the revisions to assumptions being forced by key archaeological findings.
Robert is obviously a big fan of D.M.Murdock but her track record in historic research and scholarship when it comes to the writings in ancient religions is shocking, and the theses she propounds from these have been thoroughly debunked.
I've provided examples of this previously. One glaring example is her assertion that Krishna in the original sources was born of a virgin, where in the actual Hindu writings he was the eight son of his mother!
This information is readily available and giving misinformation is inexcusable in the circumstances, particularly when the writer is claiming to be a serious scholar and expert on that religion and it's writings. And that's just one example.
Here's a Christian response to the kind of claims made by Murdock of pagan parallels.
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_ ... ities.html
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Re: Exodus not history?

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Izzard FTW!! :lol:
youkrst

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..D.M.Murdock but her track record in historic research and scholarship when it comes to the writings in ancient religions is shocking
Flann that is absolute .... i disagree totally.

say what you want about D.M.Murdock but her research is impeccable, i get so sick of seeing people write her off with a handwave dismissal, her work is so thoroughly notated, referenced etc, she finds stuff that is just so exciting and i think the treatment she gets is appalling.
her track record in historic research and scholarship when it comes to the writings in ancient religions is shocking
bullshit! her track record in historic research and scholarship when it comes to the writings in ancient religions is first rate!

if i come on strong it is because i am so sick of seeing D.M. Murdock trashed by buffoons that haven't even read her work.

same with freke and gandy (the jesus mysteries)

the number of times i have seen them trashed, well i read that book and it is a really good read full of wonderful stuff.
Last edited by youkrst on Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
youkrst

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Re: Exodus not history?

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out of respect for D.M. Murdock and her work i am going to make a point.

let's have at it.

here is your claim Flann.
One glaring example is her assertion that Krishna in the original sources was born of a virgin, where in the actual Hindu writings he was the eight son of his mother!
let's look at the birth of Krishna
One day a loud voice from the sky (Akash Vani in Hindi) prophesied that the 8th son of Kansa's sister (Devaki) would kill Kansa.
just as Herod was told by the wise men of the birth of Jesus and then told them to come tell him when they found the child so he could worship him, er...kill him.
Lord Vishnu himself later appeared to Devaki and Vasudeva and told them that he himself would be their eight son and kill Kansa and destroy sin in the world.
ring any bells? Immanuel, God with us.
In the story of Krishna the deity is the agent of conception and also the offspring.
ring any bells? God of very God, Son of God who is himself God.
Because of his sympathy for the earth, the divine Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and was born as her son, Vaasudeva (i.e., Krishna).
OH BUT THAT'S NOT A VIRGIN BIRTH!!! shout the christians squirming under the weight of the truth.

what kind of narrow minded buffoonery is that.

do you think Jesus is the only example of pathenogenesis in mythology?

in the Jesus story Mary is a virgin, in the Krishna story Devaki has kids, WAY TO MISS THE POINT!

in both cases NOT BORN OF EARTHLY FATHER.

but it's not a "virgin birth" nya nya'ny nya nya

is it any wonder people who read get frustrated with christians :slap:

so we see..
Virgin birth in this case should be more accurately understood as divine conception.
indeed.

watch the story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBAZewAcJY4

if you can't see the parallels.... ...clue, murder of the innocents.
Last edited by youkrst on Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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