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Evolution and baseball caps 
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Post Evolution and baseball caps
I used to wear my baseball cap on backwards when I was a lad.
I used to think it was just because it looked cool. But now i know the real reason why I worr it backwards:

The signals a male needs to attract a mate relate to his suitability as a source of strong, verile genetic material thats more likely to survive than his competitors.
Worn in the more traditional style, the baseball cap offers protection against the sun and also from the gaze of more aggresive competitors.
By my turning my cap around, i was signaling to females that i didnt need protection: I was demonstrating i was tough enough to face both the elements and foes. More so than your average cap wearer.

Lastly, wearing my cap backwards was a gesture of non conformity.
Our primate cousins lived (live) in a highly social ordered structure. Playing by social rules was essential for survival.
Wearing my cap backwards was a signal that i was above the norms that constrained my competitors; yet another show of strength.

Prove my scientific explanation wrong.

(When you can make stuff up and call it science it's as good as having a magic wand by your side!)



Mon May 25, 2015 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
You're trying to explain an outcome of cultural evolution through the lens of biological evolution.


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ant
Tue May 26, 2015 11:18 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Not every trait of an organism exists because it gave a competitive advantage in survival. No matter which way you were influenced to wear your cap, it might have had no effect on your relative ability to get females.

People can also be induced to adopt habits or styles that arguably would reduce their likelihood of reproducing, even without their knowing this. Interbane is right that culture and biology operate by different rules, though there is some similarity.



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ant
Wed May 27, 2015 7:17 am
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Interbane wrote:
You're trying to explain an outcome of cultural evolution through the lens of biological evolution.



can you elaborate a bit more?

I don't want to assume what you're thinking here until I know a bit more where you're going with this.

i'd think the two are conjoined (is that the word?), but one is ultimately dominant because of its specific priority (gene survival).

thanks



Wed May 27, 2015 1:46 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
DWill wrote:
Not every trait of an organism exists because it gave a competitive advantage in survival. No matter which way you were influenced to wear your cap, it might have had no effect on your relative ability to get females.

People can also be induced to adopt habits or styles that arguably would reduce their likelihood of reproducing, even without their knowing this. Interbane is right that culture and biology operate by different rules, though there is some similarity.



Well, it's not really me that wore his cap like that. I was trying to make a point. :)

Why not if the behavior signals a trait found to be attractive?
Would it be just a coincidence if it's considered widely attractive?
We've all heard the saying "women like bad boys"

Why can't my explanation have a predominant biological element if we are all essentially gene machines that wish to propagate?



Wed May 27, 2015 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
ant wrote:
Why can't my explanation have a predominant biological element if we are all essentially gene machines that wish to propagate?


That's too reductionist. We are also the products of our experience. Our experience, the things we learn, the ideas we have, the information we consume, change our beliefs and behaviors. Our genes color this process to an extent, but do not control it. Consider identical twins who act very differently. There is no genetic reason for this to be the case. If the explanation for their behaviors and idiosyncracies was predominantly genetic, then their behavior should be roughly identical. But it's not. The variable is their experience.

There are interesting similarities due to the "coloring" of genetics, however. For instance, identical twins raised in different households are sometimes found to have similar religious and political tastes. Our genes also influence our sexual preferences. We desire women with wide hips, big eyes, and a plump upper lip, but that doesn't mean we won't marry a woman without those qualities, since we could fall in love with her mind and be blind to her less than ideal figure.


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Wed May 27, 2015 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
I dont desire a woman with wide hips, Interbane.
I like slim girls.

We dont "fall in love" with anyone, Interbane.
We desire a vehicle that will propogate our genes.
The rest is an illusion.

Why play the romantic about this?

Isnt the goal of evolutionary psychology to reduce behavior to biology?

The tone I'm hearing from you is that we're free agents, above our determined biology.
Is that it?



Thu May 28, 2015 12:58 am
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
ant wrote:
We dont "fall in love" with anyone, Interbane.


Sure ant.

ant wrote:
The tone I'm hearing from you is that we're free agents, above our determined biology.


Above our determined biology? Of course. If our biology determined everything, space flight would have come hand in hand with a larger cranium.


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Thu May 28, 2015 9:52 am
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Interbane wrote:
Consider identical twins who act very differently. There is no genetic reason for this to be the case. If the explanation for their behaviors and idiosyncracies was predominantly genetic, then their behavior should be roughly identical. But it's not. The variable is their experience.

Hi Interbane, This strongly suggests that the genetic factor is negligible if not non existent. You've said in the past that our baser urges are the remnants of our evolutionary history. Correct me if I misrepresent you here. I suppose you mean animal like urges often called primordial.
If this explains certain base human behaviours then the genetic influence is considerable as a glance at the daily news would attest, not to mention the history of wars etc.
Interbane wrote:
There are interesting similarities due to the "coloring" of genetics, however. For instance, identical twins raised in different households are sometimes found to have similar religious and political tastes.

Do you think this is due to their genetic make-up? Do you know of studies that definitively prove this as causal?
Couldn't it be due to similar beliefs in the adoptive parents? We are forever reminded that Muslims are usually so because of their cultural and family upbringing.
Are there genes for religious and political tastes and if there are how is any religious or political view actually true? What do these twins studies actually show causally?
Just asking.



Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu May 28, 2015 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Thu May 28, 2015 12:33 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Thanks for joining the conversation, Flann.
You have some good thoughts to share.
You know more about this than I do



Thu May 28, 2015 12:36 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Quote:
Are there genes for religious and political tastes and if there are how is any religious or political view actually true?


Those would be "memes" I'm guessing.
Just as the idea of a God is simply an idea spread from host to host (aka "meme") so is the idea that there is no God.



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Thu May 28, 2015 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
We dont "fall in love" with anyone, Interbane.


Sure ant.

ant wrote:
The tone I'm hearing from you is that we're free agents, above our determined biology.


Above our determined biology? Of course. If our biology determined everything, space flight would have come hand in hand with a larger cranium.



What does the type of love you are referring to mean to a gene?
Any "love" that goes beyond a courting and mating phase between two separate gene receptacles and caring for offspring to assure gene survival is a spandrel - simply a byproduct.



Thu May 28, 2015 12:48 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Flann wrote:
Hi Interbane, This strongly suggests that the genetic factor is negligible if not non existent. You've said in the past that our baser urges are the remnants of our evolutionary history. Correct me if I misrepresent you here. I suppose you mean animal like urges often called primordial.
If this explains certain base human behaviours then the genetic influence is considerable as a glance at the daily news would attest, not to mention the history of wars etc.


The genetic influence is indeed considerable. For example, without even knowing either of these twins, I can say with confidence that both of them are sexually attracted to to men(it would be extreme confidence, except that they could be lesbian). I can say that both have all the common moral emotions that guide behavior, such as guilt, shame, embarrassment, pride, elevation, gratitude. And that these moral emotions make their behavior highly predictable under many different circumstances. However, these moral emotions do not guide the whimsical choices, such as ant wearing his hat backwards.

Flann wrote:
Do you think this is due to their genetic make-up? Do you know of studies that definitively prove this as causal?


Definitive? Probably not. Highly suggestive though. Here is one of many examples:

http://www.livescience.com/47288-twin-s ... etics.html


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Thu May 28, 2015 4:11 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
ant wrote:
What does the type of love you are referring to mean to a gene?
Any "love" that goes beyond a courting and mating phase between two separate gene receptacles and caring for offspring to assure gene survival is a spandrel - simply a byproduct.


Love is beneficial in more areas than between two mates.


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Thu May 28, 2015 4:13 pm
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Post Re: Evolution and baseball caps
Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:
What does the type of love you are referring to mean to a gene?
Any "love" that goes beyond a courting and mating phase between two separate gene receptacles and caring for offspring to assure gene survival is a spandrel - simply a byproduct.


Love is beneficial in more areas than between two mates.



Please explain.
If love goes well beyond our genetic programming then youre venturing into "love is its own force" territory.



Thu May 28, 2015 4:48 pm
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