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Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15 
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Post Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15


Use this thread for discussing Chapters 13 through 15, or create and use your own threads. ::80

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:51 pm



Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:00 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Yea, what a great book! Just finished the book in three days and I could hardly put it down. The ending is just fantastic, so many kicks in the pants. Especially when Ender learns that the entire issue was a communication problem (which I think was eluded to before it was revealed at the end? am I remembering that right? Rackham and Ender perhaps discussing the fact that the humans and buggers could not communicate so could not determine each other's intent). The switch over from game to reality was killer (literally and figuratively!)! Looking forward to reading the sequels.

::233

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:54 pm



Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:53 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Fantastic book!

This book seems to take on the notion that the military takes our kids, trains them using 'games' and lies to them about what they are really being trained to do. The criticism is harsh against the ideas that we only strike in self-defense.

Ender was a dupe after all. Lied to by his 'superiors' to commit genocide against an enemy that they assumed they knew but actually never bothered to engage in any attempt at understanding.

Were the bugger totally innocent in this matter? The queen alludes to a mistake that they made and how they desired to correct that mistake. Did any human 'leaders' understand this at all, or were they truley acting in self-defense? Was this mainly a colonization effort? A manifest destiny?

Great book.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
It's a shame that this reading isn't getting more attention. I'll try to pick up a copy and re-read it if I can think to do so. I've got a lot of stuff going on the next few weeks, though, so it may be a while before I get around to it.




Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Yeah I was beginning to think this was a dead conversation. I am going to TRY to collect more thoughts and post away, but if there are no responses, that will get old quick.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Quote:
Were the bugger totally innocent in this matter? The queen alludes to a mistake that they made and how they desired to correct that mistake. Did any human 'leaders' understand this at all, or were they truley acting in self-defense?


It has been a few years since I read this, but my understanding was that the humans had no way of knowing that the buggers felt they made a mistake. I've read every book in the series, now, and I believe the humans were so terrified at inevitably being attacked again, that they felt the human attack would be the only way to ensure human survival. On the same token, the humans didn't realize they were going to have to commit zenocide. Ender, of course, thought it was just another test, so he wasn't thinking of the moral implications.

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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
I think the humans actually PLANNED the Xenocide. I mean, they knew about the queen and how if the queen is killed, the rest die as well. They planned a direct assault on the home planet, where the queens were.

Does this scenario speak to human against human war? I mean...iis Card saying that we do not listen or try to understand each other before going off and attacking? Is this an example of what we are going through today?

I do not mean this from an Amercentric POV...misunderstanding works both ways after all.


Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:09 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
I think Mr. P is correct, the leaders planned for Ender to nail the queen and wipe out the entire race.




Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:33 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Hive queen is correct to though...in that the humans did not realize that the buggers were sorry and trying to make amends. They just did not care enough to even consider it though. It was easier to destroy the danger than try to understand it and work toward diplomatic channels. The danger felt was too overwhelming...so the best solution was to eradicate it.

Also..the earth in this story is over-populated...we simply need to move out and colonize...it is mentioned that colonizing Buggers worlds would be easy, since most of the framework is laid out and useable by humans. It was purely self interest.

And ahh...the Discussion questions I posted have jarred a point I had marked off to bring up (I do not have the book with me at this time). The conversation between Dink and Ender as well as the videos of the 2nd invasion (sparse scenes of a seemingly easy victory) that tipped me off that the buggers were not a threat...that it was "the adults" that were the enemy (due to the adults lying to them).

All too familiar throught our history, no?


Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 5/1/06 1:22 pm



Mon May 01, 2006 10:16 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Mr.P, i have no idea what you are talking about. our great country would never go to war and attack another country that was not really a threat. ::182 ::04




Mon May 01, 2006 5:02 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Must be me going off on a tantrum again huh? ;)

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Mon May 01, 2006 10:06 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Captioning Blue Lily's last post, I think we can see exactly why we should LOOK for meaning in fiction. I do not think anyone writes JUST to write a story. Even if the prime mover was a creative urge, experience and ingrained social issues are bound to emerge.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Tue May 09, 2006 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
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As someone who writes fiction, I can tell you that's probably not the case. Even if you don't want to take my word for it, there are plenty of books and essays about writing which reveal the extent to which authors are often surprized at what crops up in their own books without their intent.


As someone who also writes fiction - and has made his living as a professional Writer for over 10 years - I disagree. Yes, stories do tend to take on a life of their own at times, but the author has ultimate control. And considering the thorough editorial process that novels go through before being published, I can say with extreme confidence that what is in Ender's Game is only what Card wants in Ender's Game.

When finished, works of fiction usually do look quite different from the author's original outline. That's just part of the writing process. But any meaning - moral or otherwise - that survives writing, revision, editing, and publishing is meant to be there.

Quote:
I think it's intellectually dishonest to presume that you know what an author intended. Readers are only capable of judging the content of a book according to what they take from it. As far as I'm concerned, authorial intent is only valid up until the moment the book hits the reader's hands.


I know what the author intended because Card has stated, fully and precisely, what he intended. Therefore it is not presumption, it is fact.

The only valid meaning any work of art can have is the one that its creator puts there. Such meaning can be simple and dull (Scream III), straightforward and interesting (The Lord of the Rings), multi-layered and insightful (The Satanic Verses), or intentionally cryptic and impenetrable (Gravity's Rainbow). But regardless of the nature of the work, the person reading or watching it does not actually add anything to it; the best they can hope for is to be astute enough to grasp 100% of the artist's meaning.

People can look at Michelangelo's David and get anything from "Naked dude!" to "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like a god! The paragon of animals!". In that sense, yes, people take different meanings from any work of art. But if someone says David is an expression of the renaissance peasantry's apprehension over declining grain prices and emerging market economies on the Iberian peninsula, he's either crazy or full of shit.

Quote:
That Card has been accused of any of those things is the fault of those who are more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work.


They are indeed "more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work", but the problem isn't their interest in authorial intent. The problem is that they're seeing intent that doesn't really exist. Their "specific reaction" is either woefully imperceptive or intentionally beligerant.

I'm actually a little surprised that distinction needs to be pointed out.

Quote:
I agree, and I think that's the opposite end of a spectrum that you could chart along Nichomachean lines. On one end is the view that literary appreciation should attempt to conform to some nebulous conception of what the author intended. On the other end is the view that all works of art either can or cannot be interpreted as a kind of allegory for what the reader already believes, and that such works are only valuable when they can and are made to conform. And as with Nichomachean spectrums, I'd say the best path is the middle path.


Appreciation of any work should attempt to grasp the artist's meaning as completely as possible. It should not attempt to distort the artist's intent in order to make a moral argument on behalf of the reader or viewer.


G

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- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity




Wed May 10, 2006 8:38 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Greg:

Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.

Thanks,

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Wed May 10, 2006 11:59 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
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Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.


I'm going by Card's introduction in the Ender's Game revised edition. In it he plainly states that:

1) He sees fiction writing primarily as a tool with which to tell a story, and therefore the novel is largely free of any cryptic, layered meaning.

2) Ender Wiggin was created as the protagonist for Speaker for the Dead; Ender's Game was written mostly for the purpose of fleshing out his background.

I searched for that introduction on the 'net, but I haven't been able to find it. However, the revised edition of Ender's Game isn't a rarity or anything; anyone who wishes to read Card's statements on the subject can certainly go to a book store and do so.


G

"Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."

- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity




Wed May 10, 2006 1:41 pm
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