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Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump 
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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
I guess The Swamp is a flexible term, according to the particular elements one wants drained away. Would the presence of more billionaires in positions of power be a Swamp indicator? Then we can say that Trump has probably not pulled the plug. Would cutting the numbers of federal employees show progress in draining? Then we could say he is succeeding. But I still want to know exactly what a person means when he invokes The Swamp. Personally, I hate the term just for its bias against swamps, which are wonderful places we should be guarding against drainage.



Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
The swamp is a breeding place for mosquitos (bureaucracy). The swamp in California is in desperate need of being drained, far more so than the federal swamp. I've always though that states were worse than federal, as bad as federal is.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
I see the Swamp as the establishment, meaning career politicians who are more interested in their re-elections than in working for the people. As such they're beholden to corporate interests. Trump may genuinely want to "drain the swamp" as it were, but it seems that he's only substituting one reptile for another. It's like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
There's a good conservative case to be made for reducing government bureaucracy, whether state or federal (or local, for that matter). Government is so much more than elected officials. But the case needs to be made from a base of knowledge about what needs to be restructured or cut. It can't be just "government is bad, gov't is the swamp," because most of government is necessary. We might not think it is, but when it leaves then we find out what we're missing. This is where the libertarian delusion comes in. In the name of liberty the libertarians claim that regulations are evil and make us less free. No society has ever tried that approach, though; there are no successful examples to point to.

What might the effect be of the drastic cuts to the State Department, to name one department that's been targeted? The world is complicated and bears a lot of watching. We won't necessarily feel the effects of cuts immediately, if they were made without due consideration.



Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Dwill wrote:
There's a good conservative case to be made for reducing government bureaucracy, whether state or federal (or local, for that matter). Government is so much more than elected officials. But the case needs to be made from a base of knowledge about what needs to be restructured or cut.


I agree. The status quo appears to be that most new bureaucracy includes provisions to garner votes that benefit (or at least limit the damage to) special interests. Meanwhile any removal of bureaucracy removes the effective parts while leaving the provisions.

Whether we shrink or grow, we do so to the benefit of the few and mighty. Neither base side of the political spectrum truly gets what they want, because the details of the change are dictated by special interests.

Even though the analogy has drifted from the original (mosquito reduction), I agree with Geo. We need to drain the swamp to see and purge the alligators. Campaign finance reform is the best place to start.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Had Clinton been elected it would have been business as usual in Washington, and the swamp creatures wouldn't have squawked at all. Their payola would have continued and their secrets would have been kept. But then Trump happened. Whatever else he is, he's an outsider by D.C. standards. And outsiders are threats. Plus, he's a NOISY outsider, threatening to reveal the perverts.

Image

That's a Trump tweet from 2012. And now he's in charge of the U.S. With luck and persistence 2018 will see the dismantling of the major human trafficking rings. Trump has declared January to be National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month:

"...NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim January 2018 as National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month, culminating in the annual celebration of National Freedom Day on February 1, 2018. I call upon industry associations, law enforcement, private businesses, faith-based and other organizations of civil society, schools, families, and all Americans to recognize our vital roles in ending all forms of modern slavery and to observe this month with appropriate programs and activities aimed at ending and preventing all forms of human trafficking...."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential ... ion-month/


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
DWill wrote:
. . . It can't be just "government is bad, gov't is the swamp," because most of government is necessary. We might not think it is, but when it leaves then we find out what we're missing. This is where the libertarian delusion comes in. In the name of liberty the libertarians claim that regulations are evil and make us less free. No society has ever tried that approach, though; there are no successful examples to point to.

I'm not sure libertarians necessarily argue that we should have no regulations, but the minimum number which, of course, is the crux of the biscuit. The libertarian ideal state would be very much like the wild west where you have a sheriff in the town to handle the riffraff, and a federal marshal who deals with the larger territory, leaving most people to pretty much fend for themselves and thrive or perish depending on their own actions. If memory serves, the guy who described libertarianism like this was the guy who wrote that book on critical thinking that we discussed many moons ago. I can't remember his name or the title of that book, but the analogy has always stayed with me.

But DWill is right. And though I agree in spirit with some libertarian ideas, I think we have to recognize the reality of modern society, which needs regulations and laws. There is a compact between the people and the government which requires us to give up some freedoms or else return to the Hobbesian brutish state of nature. But we also need to constantly be on guard from the tyranny of government. Today's tyranny seems to come in many forms, but most particularly in the form of corporate interests that push us towards oligarchism and corporatism. I agree with Interbane and DWill that such cuts to government services must be made thoughtfully, with a scalpel and not with an axe.

I think Trump's slogan, make America great again, is a naive call to return to the 1950s when we were much less populated, much less diverse, and where minorities were cruelly marginalized. It is not a state we can return to, nor should we want to.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
KindaSkolarly wrote:
Plus, he's a NOISY outsider, threatening to reveal the perverts.


Unless they're women, then he'll grab them by the posse. Which isn't at all perverted. :no:

The threat of the "deep state" is nothing versus the threat of the "deep pockets". One of these two "deeps" is actually controlling our government. The other is the propaganda they use to get public support for themselves or the politicians they fund.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Yes, there was locker room talk about sex, but at least Trump didn't take a dozen trips on Epstein's Lolita Express, the way that serial rapist and pedophile Bill Clinton did. While Clinton was lying to our faces about not having sex "with that woman," congress (swamp class of '95) passed the Congressional Accountability Act. Passed it 390-0 in the House and 98-1 in the Senate. That bill is the reason that today all sexual misconduct cases involving congress creatures are settled on the QT with taxpayer money. But that's about to change--watch how many incumbents stand down in the upcoming elections. They don't have the Bush/Clinton/Obama team covering their backs anymore.

Trump's the real deal when it comes to human rights progressivism. The small-minded will still buy into the identity politics of the mainstream media, but...

The mainstream media. In their eyes, the election of Trump wasn't about the groundswell of disgust with the status quo in Washington; the main story of the election was that the mainstream media was DEAD WRONG. They parroted one another endlessly, and by election day Hillary Clinton had an 87% chance of winning. According to the mainstream media. So for the past year we've watched the infantile media squalling about Trump because their pride got a boo boo. They've squalled while Trump has launched a war against human rights violators.

I hope that the rumors of 10,000 federal indictments is true. The leftists will call it a purge and fascism, ignoring the fact that trafficking in children...well, that's pretty serious. If the leftist coup against Trump isn't completed in 2018, it'll be too late to remove him. When Americans see the Obamas and Bushes and Clintons put on trial for crimes against humanity, it will do wonders for the nation's spirits.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
KindaSkolarly wrote:
They've squalled while Trump has launched a war against human rights violators.

I hope that the rumors of 10,000 federal indictments is true. The leftists will call it a purge and fascism, ignoring the fact that trafficking in children...well, that's pretty serious. If the leftist coup against Trump isn't completed in 2018, it'll be too late to remove him. When Americans see the Obamas and Bushes and Clintons put on trial for crimes against humanity, it will do wonders for the nation's spirits.

I might have missed something in the news or am not understanding you. What war on human rights abusers has Trump launched? In the context of human rights, what we can note is that Trump has made it a point not to tell other nations how to treat their people. He didn't say a peep about human rights when he visited China, to give one example, will not say anything negative about Putin's thugocracy, to give another.



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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Yes, you've missed something in the news.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
"Voyeuristic Busy-Butt Outrage Machine." That is new to me. We are in an unproductive place politically. We have been here more than a few times in our history. It will pass. However bad you think the other guy is...chances are he is not not half so bad and even better than that....however good you think your guy is....chances are he is not half so good and not even as good as that.



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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
KindaSkolarly wrote:
. . . Whatever else he is, he's an outsider by D.C. standards. And outsiders are threats. Plus, he's a NOISY outsider, threatening to reveal the perverts.
Image

Human trafficking is repugnant to all decent people and not a partisan issue at all. I'm glad that Trump is willing to carry on the fight, but issuing a proclamation is standard political posturing. Indeed, Obama, issued pretty much the same thing in 2016:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... rafficking

Trump's tweet indicates to me that this president either doesn't understand or doesn't care about due process of law. Pedophiles should certainly be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but is he really suggesting that pedophiles should face the death penalty? How would he justify such a radical change in U.S. law? The death penalty in the United States is used almost exclusively for the crime of murder. To expand the use of the death penalty for child rape should be explored only though careful study of the problem. Would it actually deter pedophile crimes? What about the troubling issue that our system of law is clearly flawed and frequently wrongly convicts people?

This tweet follows the same pattern of Trump's undisciplined thinking. He hears something on the news and throws out a tweet, sometimes without spell-checking (or fact-checking). The "epidemic" of child snatching in Kansas is not even true.

https://www.snopes.com/child-abduction-kansas/

As such Trump shows that he is really good at reacting emotionally to an issue, but he shows almost no aptitude for calm reflection or desire to take a rational approach. Does he even remember that tweet? I doubt it. So what has changed really?

We do frequently hear that Hillary Clinton would only have continued the status quo, and I think that's true for what it's worth. But it really isn't a very good argument in support of Trump; it's also a non sequitur because Clinton wasn't elected. The fact that Trump is an outsider isn't much of an argument either. A dog or a chair would be an outsider too. Does that mean a dog or chair would make a good president? Clearly not. What we need is an independent thinker AND someone who is knowledgeable of our history and political traditions AND someone who is capable of making meaningful changes within our system. Trump shows at every turn that he's none of these things.


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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Robert Tulip wrote:
Excuse me ant, but please try a bit harder to read what you are commenting on.

There is a small difference between authoritarian and authoritative.

Making dumb mistakes like that once may be regarded as a misfortune, but doing it too much looks like carelessness.



Fair point. My bad.



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Post Re: Draining the swamp - Thank you Donald Trump
Interbane wrote:
The swamp is a breeding place for mosquitos (bureaucracy). The swamp in California is in desperate need of being drained, far more so than the federal swamp. I've always though that states were worse than federal, as bad as federal is.


Agreed, particularly as it relates to California.



Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:34 pm
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