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Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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Did the Holocaust really happen?Normally I'd not even question something so well documented, but in a freethinker community every claim is subject to critical examination. Today I saw a link to an article that says the head curator for the Holocaust museum in Auschwitz recently admit on videotape that much of the "evidence" is fraudulent. I'm still reading the article, but I'd love some input from others as they read the same material. Please stay on topic, which is the below article. I'm wondering about the credibility of the article, the author, the web site, the curators claims, etc...The Cole-Piper Auschwitz Video David Cole Interviews Dr. Franciszek PiperNote - The worldwide controversy over whether the Auschwitz 'gas chamber' was a post-war Stalin/Zionist creation continues to rage. The above interview with Dr. Piper, Senior Curator and Director of Archives of the Auschwitz State Museum, lies at the center of one of the key bedrock issues of the WWII 'Holocaust' as it has been described for the past several decades.This pivotal interview is now on DVD at the site below. Until and unless there is a formal academic, scientific examination of ALL the evidence pertaining to WWII German concentration/labor camps, the debate about the 'Holocaust' and the true facts of history will never be satisfactorily concluded. The Piper Interview on DVD: www.noontidepress.com/catalog/product_i ... id=357Here is the original story - Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' HoaxBy P. Samuel Foner The SpotlightVolume XIX, Number 25-31-4In a dramatic and unprecedented videotaped interview, Dr. Franciszek Piper, senior curator and director of archives of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on camera that 'Krema 1,' the alleged 'homicidal gas chamber' shown off to hundreds of thousands of tourists every year at the Auschwitz main camp, was, in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union -apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin. What Piper said - in effect and on camera - was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct: no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz. With this admission by none other than the respected head of the Auschwitz State Museum, one of the most sacred 'facts' of history has been destroyed. This 'gas chamber' is the major historical 'fact' on which much of the foreign and domestic policies of all Western nations since WWII are based. It is the basis for the $100+ billion in foreign aid the United States has poured into the state of Israel since its inception in 1948 - amounting to $16,500 for every man, woman and child in the Jewish state and billions more paid by Germany in 'reparations' - not to mention the constructing of Israel's national telephone, electrical and rail systems...all gifts of the German people. It is the basis for the $10 billion 'loan' (read 'gift') made to Israel for housing its immigrants in the occupied territories...while Americans sleep on the streets and businesses are bankrupted by the thousands. (Note - As of 2004, not a single 'loan' of US tax money made to the state of Israel by Washington has ever been paid back. -ed) Germany is paying 'reparations' - the the United States is making major contributions - to atone for the 'gassings at Auschwitz' and elsewhere. If the 'homicidal gas chambers' were postwar creations of the Soviets, in which no one was gassed regardless of race, creed, color or country of national origin, then these 'reparations' were unnecessary, and were based on fraud. The videotape on which Dr. Piper makes his revelations was made in mid-1992 by a young Jewish investigator, David Cole and follows 12 years of intensive investigation by dozens of historians, journalists and scientists who have tried to get to the bottom of what really happened at Auschwitz. Like most Americans, since his youth, Cole had been instructed in the 'irrefutable fact' that mass homicidal gassings had taken place at Auschwitz. The number of those executed - also declared irrefutable - was 4.1 million. Then came the Leuchter Report in 1988 which was followed with an official 're-evaluation' of the total deaths at Auschwitz (down to 1.1 million). As a budding historian - and a Jew - Cole was intrigued. Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted or questioned the official 4.1 millon 'gassing' deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-semite, neo-nazi skinhead at the very least. Quietly, because of revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1 million. No mention was made of the missing 3 million. The Cole videotape interview proves that the people who run the Auschwitz State Museum had made a practice of fabricating 'proofs' of homicidal gassings. Keep in mind that over the years millions of tourists have been told that 'Krema 1' is in its original state, while officials knew that 'original state' is a ie. The political, religious, fiancial and historical ramifications of this proof of no homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz cannot be measured. Coupled with the Leuchter Report, the Cole interview with Dr. Piper on videotape proves that what Western governments have taught about the Auschwitz gas chamber since WWII is a lie. It proves that what televangelists such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been telling their flocks is simply not true. No one, regardless of race, creed, color or country of national origin was gassed to death in any building so designated at Auschwitz. And without 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz, where is the reasoning for the special treatment of the state of Israel? Note - This is excerpted from the orginal, much longer article by P. Samuel Foner.
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Re: Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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Here are some of the follow-up comments on the above article from the same web site...Comment From Michael Rivero 5-31-4 Current events should make it clear that deceptions in support of a war are the rule rather than the exception throughout history. Looking at the post-WW2 climate, the need for a cause on which to base the formation of Israel was clear. Here the allies had waged war on Germany for invading other peoples' lands and taking them by force, and here those same allies were asked to reverse themselves and allow the exact same thing to happen in Palestine. Clearly, only a monstrous propaganda hoax would trick the same world which halted the Nazi's land grab into turning a blind eye to the same thing being done in Palestine. Michael Rivero What Really Happened.com Comment From Jim Mortellaro [email protected] 5-31-4 When I read such as the above, I become angry. I want to hurl the lunatic who said it into the past to see what really did happen. No, I did not see what happened. But my aunt did. As did her brother, her mother, father, sister, uncles and aunts and cousins. A family of Budapest Jews, taken from their homes, packed into cattle cars and hauled into a place called Auschwits. There, my aunt and her brother were the only survivors in a family of 93. Ninety-three human beings, men, women and children were starved to death, forced into hard labor and those who could not cut the mustard were gassed. My uncle Mike, a Christian, and his fellow CIC Jewish CIC soldiers, liberated Olga's family from Auschwits and saw with their own eyes, the ovens, the gas chambers and the bodies stacked high, stripped not only of belongings but of all their humanity. A hoax? Yes. But a hoax perpetrated by those who naysay a truth. And that truth will stand for as long as there are humans left to remember. I abhor Zionism. I abhor what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people. I abhor the fact that Israel is doing many of the same things the NAZI's did to them. But it _was_ done to them. Nothing can change that. Not the pap some people attempt to sell, which is tantamount to the worst kind of lying. Remember. For in remembering, there should be something called humanity. Some in Israel have not remembered. And that will be their downfall. Jim Mortellaro Comment Geoffrey Transom. 12-5-5 Jim Mortarello wrote: "My uncle Mike, a Christian, and his fellow CIC Jewish CIC soldiers, liberated Olga's family from Auschwits and saw with their own eyes, the ovens, the gas chambers and the bodies stacked high, stripped not only of belongings but of all their humanity." That is bullshit, unless his uncle was serving with the SOVIET Army (the Soviets 'liberated' Auschwitz - on January 27th, 1945 - and it remained in the Soviet sector for the remainder of the Occupation). So it's not clear to me - again, unless tha guy was in the Red Army - that Mr Mortarello's uncle was in any posiion to make any eyewitness statements regarding Auschwitz. This is something that the Holocaust Industry relies on heavily - that nobody will check the facts. Regards, Geoffrey Transom. Comment From Stephen Sterling 5-31-4 This makes perfect sense...exactly what Stalin would do and perfect for world Zionism to exploit. Read more about Zionism and its relations with Hitler and the Nazis. www.rense.com/general36/colb.htm I read the Leuchter Report. Everyone should and only THEN make their own decision. The horrors of the concentration camps defy description...death, murder, mass starvation, deadly epidemics which killed enormous numbers of people. By 1944, much of Germany was in near starvation and food supplies to camps would have been marginal. We should also keep in mind that Roosevelt and Churchill never ordered a single bombing raid to hit the rail lines leading to any of the major concentration and slave labor camps. Why? Furthermore, where is the worldwide lobby which mourns and memorializes the estimated 2-3 million Japanese civilians who were incinerated by American bombing? Or, the 50-60 million civilians that 'Uncle Joe' annihilated? On and on it goes. Death is death. All holocausts are equal. Comment From Sam Feldman 5-31-4 Dear Mr. Rense, As I have heard you mention, Prof Finkelstein's book 'The Holocaust Industry' is must reading for anyone trying to honestly understand what has been done with the Holocaust as an instrument of profit. Furthermore, Zionists are NOT the best friends of most of us Jews. Look what they have done to Israel. Look what they are doing to the Palestinians. And if there is any doubt about their involvement in the Holocaust, I quote from Lenni Brenne in an article by Dr. Henry Makow, PhD, who is also a Jew: According to Lenni Brenner's online book Zionism in the Age of Dictators (Ch.7), the Zionist party was the only other political party in Nazi Germany that enjoyed a measure of freedom, and could publish a newspaper. The reason: Zionists and Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews go to Palestine. (www.marxists.de/middleast.../ch07.htm) History is not always what you'd expect. There are more shocking examples in Brenner's book (Chapters 24 & 25). For instance, in November 1942, Rabbi Michael Dov-Ber Weismandel, a Jewish activist in Slovakia approached Adoph Eichmann's representative, Dieter Wisliceny: "How much money would be needed for all the European Jews to be saved?" Wisliceny went to Berlin and returned with an answer. For a mere $2 million they could have all the Jews in Western Europe and the Balkans. Weismandel sent a courier to the World Zionist Organization in Switzerland. His request was refused. The official, Nathan Schwalb sent enough money to save only Weismandel and his cadre. He wrote: "About the cries coming from your country, we should know that all the Allied nations are spilling much of their blood, and if we do not sacrifice any blood, by what right shall we merit coming before the bargaining table when they divide nations and lands at the war's end? ....for only with blood shall we get the land." (p.237) Brenner writes that Zionism had come full turn. "Instead of Zionism being the hope of the Jews, their blood was to be the political salvation of Zionism" (p.23 . I urge your visitors to read the rest of the article by Dr. Makow: www.rense.com/general31/zionist.htm As he says, in one of the biggest understatements of all time: "History is not always what you'd expect." Comment From Rod 6-2-4 Jeff, Re: recent Comment by stuborn people who refuse to look at the FACTS of WW2. The Jewish folks were not the only people who suffered enourmously in WW2. Let's remember and mourn equally those peoples who were invaded and bomb; cities full of people destroyed; the soldiers who fought and died on both side; the slave workers in production facilities and labor camps for the war effort in EVERY combatant country, the Japanese obliterated in Nagasaki and Hirosima and the 2-3 million other fire bombed to death by the US. Etcetera. And by the way "we are not paying for someone else's ACTIONS" So, get out of our WALLETS. We do not owe you anything for your individual suffering. Nor is my family going to toil to pay for your rich lawsuits.. The past is finished. GET OVER IT. THAT WAS THEN THIS IS NOW. WHO CARES. IT'S ANCIENT HISTORY. GET a NEW STORY. GET a NEW LIFE. We are not slaves either. Nor are we obliged to pay for your imagined DEBTS. You're not the ONLY victims. Comment From Hugh Joseph 6-3-4 Among the comments made to the above article was one by Jim Mortellaro who said: "When I read such as the above, I become angry. I want to hurl the lunatic who said it into the past to see what really did happen. No, I did not see what happened. But my aunt did. As did her brother, her mother, father, sister, uncles and aunts and cousins." This sounds very much like something Henry Makow said here recently. He made a statement that his Grandmother had been murdered by the Nazis. When I wrote him asking how he knew this, his response was an irritated "...maybe she fell down a well..the Nazis didn't issue death certificates." In other words he did not know the truth and didn't care to find out about it. Jews were gassed and that was all there was to it. That is not science. That is sentiment. Let us find out what actually happened. The whole world would be better off for it. Where do we find that any inquiry into any other reported genocide is prohibited by law? If you wanted you could get up on a soapbox and loudly deny that black slavery took place, or that the Red Indian was genocided by the early Americans. You are even free to deny the Inquisition. Say that Pol Pot didn't kill millions of his own countrymen and few will bat an eyelid. Deny that Stalin killed over 50 million Christian Russians and you might even get some newly minted "free speech" award from Hustler or Playboy, or from the ADL, or ACLU. Please tell me why there must be legislation to prevent any discussion of the facts of what happened to Jews under Hitler in such countries as Canada, Austria and Germany? And while you're at it, can you explain why it is that we have nearly a dozen Jewish Holocaust museums here in the US, when the holocaust of Jews occured thousands of miles away, but not one serious museum devoted to the plight of either the Red Indian or the Black Man? Doesn't that bother you? My own Great Grandparents suffered indescribably at the hands of certain people. Should I be looking for reparations from their descendants? Should I reserved a special place in my heart for hated of the perps? Should I go on exacting perpetual and eternal vengeance on the children of those who wronged my family? Or should I forgive them? I have nothing against the Jews, but the truth dictates that we carefully and scientifically study the crimes of the NS to understand what happened. If that means revising what we have been taught about the Jewish holocaust, then so be it. We must be forever servants of the truth. Why is that so scary to you? Comment Eric K. 6-2-4 Anytime a group of people makes such a clamor and noise over investigations into a matter, you can bet they have something to hide and are protecting a valuable gain. For far too long certain Jews have been squeezing the holocaust turnip for all its worth, and calling it blasphemy for anyone to make an inquiry. We're just supposed to sit down, shut up and hear the woe of Shoah!, and believe it. That's utterly ridiculous. And to wag a finger and shout "anti-semite!" anytime someone questions is a cheap trick. So exactly what ARE they hiding?
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Re: Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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It comes as little surprise that this information is hosted on rense.com, a site which features various nuttiness regarding UFOs, 9/11 conspiracy, psychics and so on. Holocaust denial is essentially a form of global conspiracy theory, claiming the Jews run everything and have manipulated the world into believing that the Holocaust happened in order to extort financial aid for the establishment and continued existence of Israel. Of course, this idea of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy is nothing new; it is a continuation of the ideas in the fraudulent publication, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."I watched Cole's film that is referred to in the article and noticed that it mostly consists of Cole's own narration over video. The voices of people being interviewed are heard only when they seem to support his argument. The Auschwitz tour guide says that the gas chamber is in its "original state" after being asked if it is a reconstruction. She doesn't specifically deny reconstruction, although that is the implication of her words. The tour guide appears confused at times, and I suspect poor training and a limited grasp of English. A supervisor confirms reconstruction of the gas chamber after the war, which is no secret really. Cole can't resist a snide comment, "So, if you're keeping score that makes it one vote for original and one for reconstruction." The only thing that he has revealed is that the tour guide needs better training.As Cole prepares to interview Piper, he mentions the downward revising of the number of people killed at Auschwitz. Several newspaper articles are shown on the screen with headlines that validate this, but the camera is poorly focused, and the content of the articles themselves cannot be read along with the headlines, so there is no way to put the revision of the death toll in any context other than Cole's. Revising the death toll downwards seems to me an attempt to be as accurate and honest as possible rather than deception, but that's exactly how Cole presents it. The earlier Soviet figures may have been intentionally exaggerated
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Re: Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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The interviewer in that article, David Cole, is one of the 2 the guys who were on the Donahue episode about Holocaust deniers that Michael Shermer went on. He talked about it in Chapter 12 in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things." Basically, the author of the article is known as a Holocaust denier, not as a scholar or journalist.
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Re: Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

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It appears that David Cole later recanted his view that the Holocaust never happened. Other revisionists claim that this too is the result of a Jewish conspiracy - this one designed to threaten and silence anyone who questions the official view.
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Evidence

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If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome...
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The photos which are normally flashed around the most frequently were taken at camps which are no longer claimed to have been extermination camps. It's been admitted for more than 40 years now that Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald and other camps in the west were not actual death camps but became filled with disease at the end of the war and so produced some gruesome photos of emaciated prisoners and stacks of bodies. The camps which have been alleged for the last several decades to have been "extermination camps" were all located in Poland and not subject to forensic analysis until the late 1980s.

If civil liberties are of any interest to you at a time when the USA PATRIOT Act is in place, then a very good place to begin focusing on would be the case of Germar Rudolf. Rudolf was trained as a chemist and asked to perform tests at Auschwitz. Because the results which he reported were not the desired ones, he is now locked away in Germany. But the Rudolf case is not just a German case, because Rudolf was residing in Chicago when he was kidnapped and transported unwillfuly back to Germany.

For just a civil libertarian perspective and information on what occurred with Germar Rudolf, one may go to:

http://www.germarrudolf.com

Although this doesn't address the issue of what really occurred in the past, it is relevant to anyone concerned about the direction which the USA PATRIOT Act points to.

Probably the leading revisionist researcher by far is Carlo Mattogno. A useful summary essay on the actual cremation capacity at Auschwitz by Mattogno appears in a larger book edited by Germar Rudolf entitled DISSECTING THE HOLOCAUST. Mattogno's essay can be found at:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

The larger book of essays by different authors appears at:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/

The above chapter contribution which Mattogno had produced was really a summary form of a reworking of an earlier book which he had published which he now considers out of date but can still be worth looking through:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html

Another useful book which Mattogno co-authored with Jurgen Graf on Treblinka (the other piece focused on Auschwitz) appears at:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/

They also produced studies of Majdanek,

http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/

and Stutthof.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccs/

Some articles produced by Mattogno in the revisionist magazine which Rudolf had been publishing before his arrest are also worth going across. This one deals with question about the water level at Auschwitz and the frequent claims made that mass-incineration in deep pits allegedly accounts for any error between the actual cremation capacity within the camp and the numbers frequently claimed as having been murdered and disposed of on a daily basis:

http://vho.org/tr/2003/1/Mattogno13-16.html

This article gives a discussion of some of the results on combustion processes of animal carcasses and how it would relate to cremations in pits at Auschwitz:

http://vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno64-72.html

These at least are some examples of useful places to begin seeking out the heart of the controversy over alleged "Holocaust Denial." I think it's fair to say that any open-minded person who gains familiarity with at least a couple of the above sources will begin to realize that the controversy rests upon something more fundamental than simply white racists trying to rehabilitate racism, even if one remains undecided on some specific points.
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Anyone who pays attention to just the official literature on the alleged Holocaust will become aware of odd discrepancies in the story.

For example, let's consider Raul Hiberg's description of Bergen-Belsen camp:

-----
Bergen-Belsen was originally a Wehrmacht camp for wounded prisoners of war... While Bergen-Belsen thus started out as a model camp, it could not afford an inspection by a foreign government even in its early days...

By February and March the front lines began to disintegrate. More and more soldiers surrendered, major cities were given up, labor camps and concentration camps had to be evacuated. From east to west, transports with forced laborers and camp inmates were rolling inward. Some of the railway cars were shunted to side rails and abandoned to Allied bombers.

In Bergen-Belsen the camp administration broke down. As tens of thousands of new inmates were dumped into the camp (in the single week of April 4-13, 1945, the number was 28,000), the food supply was shut off, roll calls were stopped, and the starving inmates were left to their own devices. Typhus and diarrhea raged unchecked, corpses rotted in barracks and on dung heaps. Rats attacked living inmates, and bodies of the dead were eaten by starving prisoners.
-----
-- Raul Hilberg, THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS, pp. 1053-54.

What makes this so interesting is that in the period following the war gruesome photo films were widely shown of bodies being bulldozed in a giant pile by Allied forces and this was widely held before the public as evidence of death camps. These films were not made in any of the eastern camps which still are alleged to have been extermination camps, they were all made in the west at camps like Bergen-Belsen. Although Hilberg doesn't draw a rosy picture of Bergen-Belsen, it is clear that the sickening scenes shown on film were the result of the war's end and do not constitute evidence that Bergen-Belsen was ever a death camp. No one today claims that it ever was.

Germar's Rudolf's kidnapping was rationalized on the grounds that his chemistry tests at Auschwitz led him to a conclusion very similar to the current wisdom around Bergen-Belsen: it was not an extermination camp. People with the patience can read through Rudolf's report of his findings at Auschwitz:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html
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Yes, what about the documentation provided by the Nazis? What already exists to be examined is conclusive in itself; with the opening of these archives, you have massive overdocumentation of the reality of the Holocaust. What is going on with the deniers? Is it that in so enormous an undertaking by the Nazis, there is bound to be aspects of the historical record that can be disputed, and deniers say that if mainstream historians can be wrong about the little stuff, they can be wrong about the entire judgment of history? I'd like to understand what seems to be as big a misuse of reason as irrational beliefs connected to religions.
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DWill wrote:Yes, what about the documentation provided by the Nazis? What already exists to be examined is conclusive in itself; with the opening of these archives, you have massive overdocumentation of the reality of the Holocaust.
No we do not. What documentation has been produced thus far all speaks of "the evacuation of the Jews" as the Wannsee item does. On the specific matter of the alleged existence of gas chambers this has been completely missing from documents. Ditto for the charge of an extermination plan. The available documents speak of "resettling Jews," "evacuating Jews," "extirpating Jews," and the like, similar to the Spanish Inquisition which expelled Jews from Spain. But no evidence of gas chambers or an extermination plan has yet appeared, and the number "six million" was spun from the wholecloth as well.
DWill wrote:I'd like to understand what seems to be as big a misuse of reason as irrational beliefs connected to religions.
The only misuses of reason which have occurred are when people sometimes fantasize that it would have been possible to open the door to a real gas chamber just minutes after lethal poison gas was introduced into the chamber. Or when it is imagined that 4000 or more bodies could have been incinerated at Auschwitz. The traditional "historiography" ala Raul Hilberg is full of holes, not just minor matters open to some tangential dispute. It generally is agreed by Hilberg and others that pretty much all documents speak of evacuating Jews. The claim that this allegedly was a codeword for extermination is their invention.

If you're serious about wanting to understand why rational people reject the myth of the Holocaust then you should start with some of Carlo Mattogno's work. Germar Rudolf's report is also worth studying.
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