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Creationism vs. Evolution - A Culture Divided

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Robert Tulip

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stahrwe wrote:RT, your link is to the documentary hypothesis. I am famliliar with the various objections to the Mosaic authorship. I did not ask for that I asked for a link to TP's writing as a primary source. That should be easy enough for you to come up with. As for the objection regarding Moses writing of his own death and things which happened in the future, it's called prophecy. Moses wrote about a great many things that would happen in the future. So that argument bites. Oh, and BTW, Moses did make an appearance after he died. And one more thing, Disney made the movie Song of the South. My discussion of it was in the context of a discussion on censorship.

Will the entertaining gobsmacking never cease?? The gift that goes on giving.

In five seconds I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of ... _the_Bible

The reference is from The Age of Reason, written in the 1790s.

So here we have two alternative hypotheses, with quite unequal parsimony.

A - Creationism: Moses inerrantly wrote the Pentateuch by dictation from God, including future events as prophecy (eg list of future kings of Edom, names of places that did not yet exist)

B - The World: Authors of the Old Testament collected a range of sources in their effort to present a narrative historic identity for the Jewish people. They attributed material to Moses in order to increase the influence of their writing, and because they misunderstood material that had become distorted through spoken tradition.

Edited to add: http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... of_reason/ has the full text of The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. The discussion of Lot and Dan is in Part 2.
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stahrwe

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Robert Tulip wrote: In five seconds I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of ... _the_Bible

The reference is from The Age of Reason, written in the 1790s.

The discussion of Lot and Dan is in Part 2.
Congrats, I found it too last week, and my google only took fractions of a second. I was just trying to keep it real. I'm told to cite my sources and think you should do so as well, and primary sources are always better right?

Thomas Paine was a complicated man. In many ways he was a genious, but in others he was just a nut. His criticism of Mosaic authorship was not original, and of relatively minor importance. The fact is that there are many books of the Bible whose 'author' is not know. That being said, there are also a number of explanations about the citation of Dan which preserve the Mosaic authorship. Since you are as familiar with them as I am, I will not take the space to post them here. If you are not familiar with them just google, 'did Moses write Genesis' or something similar. I do have a theory I am inclined to, but I am still looking at it as time permits. If I come to a conclusion I will post it.

Do I wear Nikes, you people are priceless.
Can I borrow some quarters?
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Suzanne

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Can I borrow some quarters?
Why, do you need to phone Moses to take you home?
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stahrwe

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Suzanne wrote:
Can I borrow some quarters?
Why, do you need to phone Moses to take you home?

Presumed your Nike reference was to The Heaven's Gate cult. In addition to wearing Nikes each cult member had a $5 bill and three quarters. I still have my $5 but not the quarters.
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johnson1010
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that's kind of comical.

What were they doing with $5.75?

Were the aliens going to charge them fare to Alpha Centuri? Not a bad rate, if you think about it.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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stahrwe

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Moses Danned

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Explanation of apparent anachronistic mention of Dan

This is my own explanation for the criticism that Moses could not have authored the portion of Genesis referring to Dan because that city had not been named yet.

In dealing with the OT people and place names often were significant in terms of their meanings. For example:

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

This was a name given to a specific place where an event took place, but it is not a city or an identifiable geographical location today.

Joshua 22:34
And the children of Reuben and the children of Gad called the altar Ed: for it shall be a witness between us that the LORD is God.

Ed, not a person, but an altar at a specific place which is no longer identifiable today.

Gen 14
14 When Abram heard that his nephew 33 had been taken captive, he mobilized 34 his 318 trained men who had been born in his household, and he pursued the invaders 35 as far as [the place of vindication or judgment of God]*. 36 14:15 Then, during the night, 37 Abram 38 divided his forces 39 against them and defeated them. He chased them as far as [their hiding place]**, which is north 40 of Damascus. 14:16 He retrieved all the stolen property. 41 He also brought back his nephew Lot and his possessions, as well as the women and the rest of 42 the people.

*Dan
**Hobah

I have rewritten Genesis 14 verses 14 and 15 substituting the meaning of the names Dan and Hobah. This reading would have been interchangeable to a Hebrew using the names or their meanings. In this presentation, it is understood that the only city named is Damascus. Abram’s army sets out after Lot’s kidnappers, they catch them and open a can of Whup A@@ on them at the place of vindication (Dan). The survivors flee and end up hiding somewhere (Hobah). Abram finds them and gets everything back. This Dan has nothing to do with Dan in judges.

Ok, unleash the dogs.
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stahrwe

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Why $5.75?

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The explanation I found was a quote by Mark Twain, but I have been unable to confirm it. Maybe one of you can find it.

"When the book Irrational Man, by William Barrett, was first published there was a break through in mass consciousness in the West indicating that there are other sides to our psyches that can not be equated with the logic paradigm followed so closely by science. Thirty years later and science joins metaphysics with the discovery of the fall of parity, the uncertainty principle, and the unique understandings which come from quantum physics. From a synthesis approach to understanding reality construction the Heaven's Gate people assembled some very diverse sources of awareness to bolster and fortify their world view. Some of these sources included the possible association with writings from Mark Twain. Don Lattin, religious writer for the San Francisco Chronicle April 6, 1997, came up with this discovery. As you recall each member of Heaven's Gate had a 5 dollar bill, and three quarters in their pockets. Why? Twain was very cynical about religion, and once wrote that,

"The fare to get to heaven on the tail of a comet was $5.75."
Interestingly, Halley's comet appeared in 1835, the year Twain was born, and appeared again in 1910, the year he died. Twain wrote of Halley's comet in 1909:

"It is coming again next year, and I expect to go out with it. It will be the greatest disappointment of my life if I don't go out with Halley's comet. The almighty has said, no doubt: 'Now here are these two unaccountable freaks; they came in together, they must go out together.'"

http://www.earthportals.com/heavengate.html
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Interbane

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Your interpretation is incorrect, it's nothing more than a rationalization. The authors made an error here.

Think any more on one good reason to believe the bible?
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stahrwe

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Interbane wrote:Your interpretation is incorrect, it's nothing more than a rationalization. The authors made an error here.

Think any more on one good reason to believe the bible?
Regarding your first statement above, I presume that you are referring to my theory about Dan. I have let you slide before, but not anymore, Unless you refute my explanation with a specific demonstration that it is iwrong, I will be forced to conclude that your objection is shallow, baselss and indefensible.

Regarding your challenge, there are many traditional arguments which are easily located, but I will proceed along a different line which will require your participation.

Consider the following:

H’s are stridently racist. They have been so long that is part of their identity. They will cross the street to avoid having their shadow touch the shadow of a non-H. The closest approximation we have of their feeling about non-H’s is that they are people who kidnap, rape and torture babies to death. H’s live apart from other groups, have special symbols and customs which are closely associated with their identity.

You are an H but decide you want to form a group, let’s call them F’s which will do the following:

Include non-H’s in a relationship resembling family
Abandon H’s symbols
Abandon H’s customs

Observable benefits of becoming an F:
None

Negative consequences of becoming an F?
Expulsion from H
Loss of family ties with those who remain H’s
Possible loss of income, the H you work for will fire you.
Possible loss of life as H’s will try to have F’s killed.

How would you convince an H to become an F?
How would you convince a non-H to become an F?
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