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Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Mr. P

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Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Quote:"We have kids killing kids because they think they're just a bunch of people descended from monkeys, with no one to answer to," he said. "If I took a bunch of guns to the zoo and handed them out to the monkeys, we'd have a bunch of dead monkeys. My problem is not with guns. My problem is with calling my kids monkeys." The jackasses are at it again!How to Debate an EVOLUTIONISTMr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. PI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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The fact that some people still think that we are descended from monkeys is very telling about how much people know about the process of evolution. No one calls humans monkeys and I hardly think that is why we are killing each other.So is this line of 'reasoning' on the part of people like the one who wrote the above quote a product of ignorance of modern scientific consensus or a design to denigrate that which is seen as a threat? I think there is a little of both...most of the human speicies, although possessed of super intelligence potential, rarely develops past the learned behavior and the un-questioning strictures of whatever faith or religion they were born into.For anyone to attempt to marginalize the validity of evolution as a process is to show that ignorance and refusal to question. The hallmark of scientific pursuit is the act of questioning that which is NOT the norm. To buck the system of majority rule and seek the truth...and to realize that even though you may have found a 'truth' that you may be proven entirely wrong. But so long as the pursuit of reality is based on sounds means and not primeval pipedreams, I think we will be ok.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"HEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. PI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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In answer to your question, Nick, I agree that it is a little of both. However, I must point out that the constant confusion of monkey and ape especially angers me! The media and the entertainment industry consistently refer to chimpanzees as monkeys. There was a show called, "Monkey Business" about chimps, a current commercial that refers to chimps as monkeys, and many, many other examples where chimps are referred to as monkeys. Over the years I have seriously considered the idea that this is a purposeful act. Maybe it is done without conscious knowledge. However, that all of these people could just be ignorant of the fact that chimpanzees are more closely related to humans than any monkeys or other apes seems unlikely! They would be making less of a mistake to refer to chimps as humans! This really gets me! It makes me wonder if this isn't a conscious or even unconscious attempt to wrongly widen the gulf between chimps and humans, by equating chimps with monkeys. It is a subtle(unless you're me, screaming at the TV)way of accomplishing such a task. Yet, when the public is inundated with such misinformation it must have a cumulative effect leaving the public to think that chimps are monkeys. This furthers the unnecessary argument that humans could not have possibly come from a monkey! Spread the word--We have evolved from a common ancestor of (not directly from)chimpanzees(not any kind of monkey) and humans!!
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Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Nicely done Tara. Of course I think that there are those who misinform purposely...but that can only work on people who habitually do what they are told by others. We had a guy named Frank on another Atheist board come in and start debating us. He said he "used to worship Darwin too" and found that he was wrong. He would post article after article to show how smart he was, I was impressed, but something did not seem right...so I baited him and he bit. I learned that he was cutting and pasting info disseminated from a Christian website (the same stuff appeared on MANY such websites) that were stock rebuttals to evolutionary theory.An minor league mind trying to play in the big leagues. These are the people who buy into the bullshit. He has since disappeared. Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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This is going to sounds nuts, but I don't believe we'd have a bunch of dead monkeys if you gave them guns. And it might actually be a fascinating experiment. I can't believe I said that, but I'm serious to a degree.As soon as the animals realized they could kill the other animals with the guns, we'd see some odd things with their behavior. But these animals have brains and don't kill meaninglessly. At least not any more often than our species.We'd probably see the brightest animal realize he had an equalizer in his hands, and would become the Alpha male rather quickly. But would he go around and shoot all the others? I seriously doubt. Have you ever seen primates mourning the loss of loved ones?Chris
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Re: Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Quote:"We have kids killing kids because they think they're just a bunch of people descended from monkeys, with no one to answer to," he said.What's wrong with this quote (aside from the monkey/chimp question)? The author of the quote makes the same mistake that many theists do: that only those with a belief in god and a heaven/hell scheme of eternal rewards/punishments can behave in ethical ways. This brings to mind Lawrence Kohlberg's levels of ethics, which I learned when studying child development. Below is a summary of those levels, which I have copied from www.scu.edu/ethics/practi...aught.html (a Santa Clara University website): Quote:Kohlberg found that a person's ability to deal with moral issues is not formed all at once. Just as there are stages of growth in physical development, the ability to think morally also develops in stages.The earliest level of moral development is that of the child, which Kohlberg called the preconventional level. The person at the preconventional level defines right and wrong in terms of what authority figures say is right or wrong or in terms of what results in rewards and punishments. Any parent can verify this. Ask the four or five year old why stealing is wrong, and chances are that they'll respond: "Because daddy or mommy says it's wrong" or "Because you get spanked if you steal." Some people stay at this level all of their lives, continuing to define right and wrong in terms of what authorities say or in terms of reaping rewards or avoiding unpleasant consequences.The second level of moral development is the level most adolescents reach. Kohlberg called this the conventional level. The adolescent at the conventional level has internalized the norms of those groups among whom he or she lives. For the adolescent, right and wrong are based on group loyalties: loyalties to one's family, loyalties to one's friends, or loyalty to one's nation. If you ask adolescents at this level why something is wrong or why it is right, they will tend to answer in terms of what their families have taught her, what their friends think, or what Americans believe. Many people remain at this level, continuing to define right and wrong in terms of what society believes or what laws require.But if a person continues to develop morally, he or she will reach what Kohlberg labeled the postconventional level. The person at the postconventional level stops defining right and wrong in terms of group loyalties or norms. Instead, the adult at this level develops moral principles that define right and wrong from a universal point of view. The moral principles of the postconventional person are principles that would appeal to any reasonable person because they take everyone's interest into account. If you ask a person at the postconventional level why something is right or wrong, she will appeal to what promotes or doesn't promote the universal ideals of justice or human rights or human welfare. Many theists are stuck at level one ("Because god said so in the bible..." or "...so you don't go to hell/...so I can get to heaven...") Some are stuck at level two ("This is what my church community believes.") It is hard for them to believe that an atheist can behave morally just because of an inner sense of compassion or his/her own moral reasoning. The result is a smug hypocrisy. I see it in my children's school. My kids have been harassed because they do not believe in god, being told things like, "Then you're going to go to hell," "You're a sinner!" Their christian classmates have reacted to my kids as if my kids were terrible people. Yet, I find it is this almost exclusively christian group of students who beat up fellow classmates, viciously taunt others using very foul and vulgar language, and form cliches that cruelly exclude and isolate others -- performing such immoral behaviors toward even their fellow christian classmates. On the other hand, my own children, as evidenced by not only my own observation but also by reports from their teachers and parents of their friends, treat their classmates with respect and kindness, voluntarily offering help to those who need it.One can be moral without a belief in god, and that is the step up to Kohlberg's third level.(I am not necesarily saying my children are yet at level three; their behavior might still be a result of living up to their parents' values. I am confident, though, that they will make the transition to level three as they mature, and I encourage this by telling them that they do not have to obey mom/dad/teacher if they feel they are being asked to do something dangerous or bad, though they are expected to respectfully offer their reasoning for refusing to obey. Neither am I saying that all theists are stuck at levels one or two or that they are all prejudiced against atheists. My children and I have found a few friends with strong religious beliefs who have taken the trouble to get to know that we are moral people; even though they have tried to convert us, they have come in time to accept us as we are, and we extend the same tolerance to them and their differing beliefs.)--Kate"When I reflect upon the number of disagreeable people who I know have gone to a better world, I am moved to lead a different life. --Mark Twain, in Pudd'nhead Wilson
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Re: Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Kate, thank you for that last post. It both articulated some important distinctions, it also helped me with the 'you don't need to believe in god to be moral' argument that has always driven me up the proverbial wall. Tara's comments also made me pause:Quote:However, I must point out that the constant confusion of monkey and ape especially angers me! The media and the entertainment industry consistently refer to chimpanzees as monkeys. How much of the confusion is intentional, how much is laziness? I've not really ever made a clear distinction myself, although I do know there is a difference. I will admit my laziness, but now I wonder if I've been conditioned to not care about the difference -- as I've never heard a passionate argument like Tara's before.Lori "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."
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Re: Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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I really don't get it. How can people be so damn stupid. Still, I guess it isn't restricted to religious types. Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
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Re: Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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Niall:No, stupidity is evident in much more than any religious ideology. It is something that humans seem to have mastered in general! Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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Re: Re: Creation Science...A Barrel of Monkeys

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For instance, see Alas Poor Darwin . Most of those who contribute misrepresent Evolutionary Psychology and it is clear that their views stem from a perception that some theories are for example sexist or support conservative economic stances. Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
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