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Could humans grow beaks in another million years.., 
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
This was classic.

Why do single cell organisms develop complexity when they can survive without it?

Answer: Because they CAN!


Question: Why did the man climb the mountain?

Answer: Because it's there.


That was really deep, guys. It made me contemplate Man as dullard, climbing dumb mountain for no reason.


Here's another gem:

Given enough time and stuff, anything can happen.
By that logic, my pet rock "Sammy" will eventually learn to talk in about 2 billion more years cause anything can happen given enough time, up to and including SOMETHING FROM NOTHING.

Or wait.., something always existed, except that wacky entity some delusional people refer to as "God"

Ya'll have reached new intellectually exciting hights.

:lol: :lol:


And the mystery of consciousness can not be considered a mystery because there are "explanations" for it and who knows what people might start to think about dumb nature if we question them.

:lol:
But wait, given enough time, dumb nature can become smart.

Come on, guys.
Geez



Last edited by ant on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:57 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
Quote:
ant wrote:

Or wait.., something always existed, except that wacky entity some delusional people refer to as "God"


Let me expand on this a little, guys:

Anthony Kenny is an agnostic philosopher. Here is an entry from Wiki:

Quote:
Although deeply interested in traditional Catholic teaching and continuing to attend the Catholic mass,[2] Kenny now explicitly defines his position as an Agnostic, explaining in his What I believe both why he is not a theist and why he is not an atheist. His 2006 book What I believe has (as Ch 3) "Why I am Not an Atheist" which begins: "Many different definitions may be offered of the word 'God'. Given this fact, atheism makes a much stronger claim than theism does. The atheist says that no matter what definition you choose, 'God exists' is always false. The theist only claims that there is some definition which will make 'God exists' true. In my view, neither the stronger nor the weaker claim has been convincingly established". He goes on "the true default position is neither theism nor atheism, but agnosticism ... a claim to knowledge needs to be substantiated; ignorance need only be confessed."


It is my opinion that a large part of the attitude here is atheistic related, in that, there is an absolute refusal to admit ignorance.
The questions asked here in the post are largely unanswerable. "Why" questions are NOT answerable by science. Yet, the atheists in these posts look to science to answer any question presented.

"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Answer: "Because anything can happen given enough time"

It's actually stunning that certain people who take pride in "rational" thought can be so satisfied with an answer so intellectually unsatisfying.
That is why we have philosophers and theologians: to pick up the lazy slack pure materialists are satisfied leaving behind.

Anthony Kenny wrote:

Quote:
After all, if there is no God, then God is incalculably the greatest single creation of the human imagination. No other creation of the imagination has been so fertile of the ideas, so great an inspiration, to philosophy, to literature, to painting, sculpture, architecture and drama; no other creation of the imagination has done so much to stir human beings to deeds of horror and nobility, or set them to lives of austerity or endeavor.


I must say that Anthony did not mention science. And that is no doubt what matters most to certain, CERTAIN atheists who look to science for ultimate knowledge and ultimate truths. And there is no questioning science's contributions to the understanding of our natural realm. However impressive its accomplishments (no one here denies that) questions of meaning and value will forever be unanswered by science. Great accomplishments elsewhere in Mankind'd pool of knowledge are due to other realms of thought.
We must thank Mankind's collective pathological delusional relationship with this "God" shouldn't we??

But no, God only sends us flying into buildings! :lol:



Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
Quote:
This was classic.

Why do single cell organisms develop complexity when they can survive without it?

Answer: Because they CAN!


It may be hard to understand because you're thinking of bacteria as people. Just because a person 'can' do something doesn't mean he will do something, you're right. But bacteria aren't people. The forces involved are mechanistic and guided by rules. It's like throwing cube magnets into a plastic bucket then shaking. Every now and then, a complex form will be constructed, rather than the more common simplistic forms. Not because the magnets 'want' to form something more complex, or because they 'need' to form something more complex. But because the outcome is somewhere on the probability curve. It's a possible outcome, even though it's not one of the more likely outcomes. Given enough time, even the unlikely possibilities will happen.

This translates to the set of information-increasing mutations over time. There are a number of ways an organism's genetic code can increase in information between it and it's offspring. Eventually, these additions will result in the lottery ticket of a beneficial mutation. It's actually a quite simple concept that you seem determined to misunderstand.

Quote:
Given enough time and stuff, anything can happen.
By that logic, my pet rock "Sammy" will eventually learn to talk in about 2 billion more years cause anything can happen given enough time, up to and including SOMETHING FROM NOTHING.


Given enough time and stuff, anything can happen.
Given enough time and stuff, anything in the set of possible outcomes can happen.

The difference between the two statements is all it takes to form a straw man. I agree with the second statement, but I don't agree with your statement. I don't believe it's possible for your pet rock to eventually talk. You form straw men all the time ant, and I don't think you even realize it.

Quote:
It is my opinion that a large part of the attitude here is atheistic related, in that, there is an absolute refusal to admit ignorance.
The questions asked here in the post are largely unanswerable. "Why" questions are NOT answerable by science. Yet, the atheists in these posts look to science to answer any question presented.

"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

Answer: "Because anything can happen given enough time"

It's actually stunning that certain people who take pride in "rational" thought can be so satisfied with an answer so intellectually unsatisfying.
That is why we have philosophers and theologians: to pick up the lazy slack pure materialists are satisfied leaving behind.


A refusal to admit ignorance? Do I need to bold my sentences when I say that "I don't know" is an acceptable answer? Read through the posts here, you'll see a ready acceptance of our own ignorance. This is another straw man.

"Why is there something rather than nothing" is NOT answered with "Because anything can happen given enough time." You took the answer from a different question and applied it to a well-known and as yet unanswerable meta-question.

Our replies were to your question on single celled organisms becoming more complex. They weren't replies to how something came from nothing. I'll be glad to philosophize around that question, don't get me wrong. But that discussion doesn't fit in this thread.


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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
How could single celled organisms jump to complex multi-celled organisms? They don't jump. They slowly climb a hill in tiny steps that don't even seem like they are gaining elevation, until you turn around, look down, and realize "hey! i can see my house from up here!"


Image

http://io9.com/marine-biologists-call-t ... -988669239

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrosome

Take a look at this thing. Or, these things, more accurately.

This in essence is a living transitional species from single celled organisms to multicelled organisms. This suggests any number of possible ways single celled organisms can benefit from living in close proximity to one another, and the portugese man of war shows an iteration a little further down the line toward a cohesive multi-celled organism with different cells performing different tasks.

Just like your organs do.


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Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?

Confidence being an expectation built on past experience, evidence and extrapolation to the future. Faith being an expectation held in defiance of past experience and evidence.


Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
And interbane had that correction right...

NOT "anything can happen."

Anything that CAN happen will happen.

So, life as we know it can happen in conditions like those found on the earth. So life as we know it is impossible on the surface of the sun.

See? This is not an argument that literally anything you can think of, including a pet rock learning to speak, is possible. This argument does NOT say that. It says, "Anything that can happen, will happen, given enough time." That means the conditions have to be right for the event to happen.

So if Venus was absolutely perfect for supporting complex humanoid life... for ten years, then went to hell... then complex humanoid life could not have evolved there.

I know the waters of science are chilly, Ant, but dip those piggies anyway and don't pull a knee jerk screed when your toes get wet. Actually think a little bit before you say something that makes you look ridiculous.

Quote:
Given enough time and stuff, anything can happen.
By that logic, my pet rock "Sammy" will eventually learn to talk in about 2 billion more years cause anything can happen given enough time, up to and including SOMETHING FROM NOTHING.


We have to take points off for stuff like this, Ant.

"It's not even wrong." refers to events like this where it's clear the argument has not even been understood well enough to correctly argue about it.


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In the absence of God, I found Man.
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Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?

Confidence being an expectation built on past experience, evidence and extrapolation to the future. Faith being an expectation held in defiance of past experience and evidence.


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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
I am definitely in the anything can happen camp on this one. There is no reason that over enough time that anything is possible.

There is Darwinism to consider though....



Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:40 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
This is not a directly related question but it's the first one I thought of when reading the header - Can God regenerate a severed limb, right now?


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Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:17 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
God will not do anything that isn't already determined by natural laws. He loves hiding.


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Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
Code:
God will not do anything that isn't already determined by natural laws. He loves hiding.


Actually, I think it's because he doesn't have to prove shit to your ass.



Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:34 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
I've always believed that the atheist has more of a Freudian problem with the concept of "God" than anything.

God is "hiding" "He" needs to show himself (evidence) to prove he exists (an absent parent that cares is around for the child to see. otherwise, the child becomes rebellious and insecure).

The atheist rebels against the very idea of an absent parent that is supposed to be an authority figure.
The child goes into denial and has issues with authority. as such.

Atheists are in an underdeveloped and immature stage. They cry for the attention they crave that a godless cosmos does not give them.

It's all quite Freudian.

Every deal with the know-it-all adolescent stage?



Last edited by ant on Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:45 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
I think I might be doing it right now! But on the off-chance I'll mention that following something to the point of criticizing a large portion of humanity for not likewise following this someone can be seen, reasonably, as a childish thing to do. I'm not up on Freud. What did he have to say about projection? Anyway, I think considering the millions cases of cancer cured, the number of cripples made to walk again, the legions of demons cast out, and all of those prayers that were answered, that one regenerated leg is a very modest request. There is a line of thought that the western world is simply too educated for God to bother with miracles amongst us. This prompts him to do extraordinary things in other parts of the globe. So while God doesn't have to prove anything he does like to show off to the superstitious. And while I will grant that God is wise I am just as sure he's unfair to life, and not at all someone to look up to. But yeah, when it comes to right now, it seems to me both science and god are silent.

ps: hay ant, what about The Plague? Let's hear it!


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Last edited by Kevin on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
smiththemighty wrote:
I am definitely in the anything can happen camp on this one. There is no reason that over enough time that anything is possible.

There is Darwinism to consider though....



Darwinian Evolution is a powerfully effective mechanism and should not be underestimated.
However, from a strictly scientific perspective, it must be realized that the theory itself encapsulates a tension within science itself - Science must limit itself to experience (observation) and must go beyond experience for the refinement of theory.

This is not to say that DE is controversial. Rather, it is subject to continued development by means of empirical interpretation.

Scientific theory relies on linguistic structures. Said structures are only as good as their terms.
Partial definitions of terms are utilized to move a theory toward its goal of explaining phenomena and achieving predictive power (making predictions). Evolution by and large is dependent on narrative terms that are not verifiable by observation to achieve empirical certainty. That is why the theory of evolution is a constant work in progress.

This is something that rubs atheists the wrong way. In a chaotic cosmos they look for certainty just as much as the theist.
The atheist wants to be certain the he was once a fish. This is brings him comfort.



Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
Quote:
God is "hiding" "He" needs to show himself (evidence) to prove he exists (an absent parent that cares is around for the child to see. otherwise, the child becomes rebellious and insecure).


Straw man #14

Who here is claiming he needs to show himself? I don't care if he acts as if he doesn't exist. I won't believe he exists in that case. Does that make you angry? Your post sounded a bit heated, as if atheists were being absurd to ask for evidence before believing something. No, I will not believe Muhammed’s writings without something to corroborate his anecdotes. Christian authors get no special treatment. L. Ron Hubbard as well.

Everyone peddles their ideological wares without evidence, then blames the non-believers for not believing! Yes, we atheists don’t believe because we’re immature children. You got us pegged!

Quote:
This is something that rubs atheists the wrong way. In a chaotic cosmos they look for certainty just as much as the theist.


Straw man #15. Show me someone who has a stronger distaste for 'certainty' than myself. This one isn't only a straw man, it's the exact opposite!


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Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:48 pm
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Post Re: Could humans grow beaks in another million years..,
ant wrote:
The atheist wants to be certain the he was once a fish. This is brings him comfort.


We've tried to pin down your slippery position on evolution too, but that was also unsuccessful. You say you accept evolution, but it seems like you don't want to believe that humans have evolved from fish. So what exactly do you accept about evolution? This is not even controversial except among creationists.

Quote:
Atheists are in an underdeveloped and immature stage. They cry for the attention they crave that a godless cosmos does not give them.


These posts are becoming increasingly ridiculous. So what is the mature stage? Are you in it? Does it consist of beliefs that have any content whatsoever?



Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:02 pm
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