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Cool visualization of human evolution 
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Post Cool visualization of human evolution
http://www.wimp.com/evolution-in-90-seconds/

Very effective propaganda, of course I ain't evolved from no apes



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Does the fossil record evidence the entire visualization?

I didnt see at which point self awareness arose?
Is there evidence for that as well?

Thannks



Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:48 pm
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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
It is claimed to be based on fossil evidence, there are a lot of hominid fossils that you'd be pretty hard pressed to explain otherwise.

The point of self-awareness is not necessary to confirm the fact of evolution.

Wouldn't you agree?



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Dexter wrote:
http://www.wimp.com/evolution-in-90-seconds/

I don't know what fossils John Curche based his artistic impressions on though I suppose it's in his book. What's noticeable is how early whites appear in the eyes of his models in that video.
In fact he said he did this to make them appear soulful. This is certainly not the norm in apes and it's not something that can be deduced from bones.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... ces/61567/

He did a reconstruction of australopithecene 'Lucy' and this fossil has the long curved fingers typical of chimps for instance, but his 'Lucy's' fingers appears more straight and human like, at least to my eyes.

http://www.discovermagazine.com/galleri ... -ancestors

There are issues and disagreements among paleontologists about hominids but of course it's generally thought among them that something along these lines is true in keeping with the theory.

The theory seems to have portable goalposts. For instance discovery of soft tissue in 75 million year old dinosaur bones is now claimed and it's not a one off, but Mary Schweitzer made similar discoveries also. From the linked article; These are "ordinary bones collected from the surface at Dinosaur Park Formation in Canada."
Also;"Scientists had thought proteins that make up soft tissue should degrade in less than a million years in the best conditions."
What then? Well I guess soft tissue and blood cells can survive for 75 million years. This is moving the goalposts in my opinion. So what about the excuse for the myriad alleged missing soft tissue links in the record then?
It can't be that the supposed date could be wrong, it seems.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... ld-fossil/

Anyone who attempts to falsify the theory is tilting at windmills as it can't be falsified and can accommodate all contradictory evidence a bit too comfortably, in my view.
http://www.uncommondescent.com/stasis/m ... evolution/



Last edited by Flann 5 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
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Anyone who attempts to falsify the theory is tilting at windmills as it can't be falsified and can accommodate all contradictory evidence a bit too comfortably, in my view.


The evidence all fits like a glove. There are countless ways the evidence could be different, therefore falsifying evolution. But it isn't different. It matches what the theory describes. This is a good sign that the theory is true, don't you think?


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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
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The usual creationist response to hominid fossils is to claim that there are no intermediates; each one is either a human or an ape. It doesn't matter that some of the "humans" have a brain size well below the normal human range, heavy brow ridges, no chin, and teeth larger than modern ones set in a projecting jaw, or that some of the "apes" were bipedal, with very humanlike teeth, and brains larger than those of similar sized apes. There are some skulls which cannot be reliably assigned to either genus. (Willis 1989)

This is exactly what we would expect if evolution had occurred. If, on the other hand, creationism was true and there was a large gap between humans and apes, it should be easy to separate hominid fossils into humans and apes. This is not the case. As will be shown, creationists themselves cannot agree which fossils are humans and which are apes. It would not matter even if creationists could decide where to put the dividing line between humans and apes. No matter where it is placed, the humans just above the line and the apes just below it will be more similar to one another than they will be to other humans or other apes.


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cre_args.html

Any creationists, or quasi-skeptics, want to take a crack at it? How do you explain the series of hominid fossils?



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Interbane wrote:
The evidence all fits like a glove. There are countless ways the evidence could be different, therefore falsifying evolution. But it isn't different. It matches what the theory describes. This is a good sign that the theory is true, don't you think?

I think it's not allowed to be falsified. Many paleontologists don't accept the incompleteness of the fossil record argument. Darwin himself was honest about this.
The overwhelming pattern is stasis punctuated by the sudden appearance of new complex creatures. Eldridge and Gould hypothesised rapid and sudden macro-evolution, without evidence for it, in order to account for this.
Stasis doesn't mean no variation but very limited. From what can be experimentally known from bacteria and fruit flies change is not dramatic creating new species or anything radically different.
Known mechanisms for change seem hopelessly inadequate. Biological systems like the cell seem programmed to replicate accurately with backup corrective features.
Mutations still occur and these subversions of the system are supposed to be the driver of change and innovation. They are predominantly harmful or neutral.
Not only that but as Loennig demonstrates even induced long term mutations show a pattern of recurrence thereby limiting possible variation.
As I've said before the hypothesised transition from a land mammal to a whale involves large scale co-ordinated and simultaneous changes to entire interdependent biological systems within a narrow time frame.
There are other phenomena such as horizontal gene transfer and environmental adaptation by cells and organisms.
Whether all these are adequate to explain believed macro-evolution is the question.
I'm sceptical, but it's unlikely to convince anyone of the opposite view.
What mechanisms can perform this feat,multiple simultaneous mutations? That's what the system is programmed to avoid and correct.



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
What in the environment triggered rapid change as opposed to stasis?

My question was does tbe fossil record account for each visualization we see on this video?
Do we have bones to reconstruct each face?

Im wondering which of these evolutionary faces can be called human?
Is it just the most handsome face that possess humaness?



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Quote:
What in the environment triggered rapid change as opposed to stasis?


That's near impossible to know.

Quote:
My question was does tbe fossil record account for each visualization we see on this video?
Do we have bones to reconstruct each face?


There are assumptions, we aren't omniscient. There could be errors, but it is very close. A lot can be inferred from partial remains.

Quote:
Im wondering which of these evolutionary faces can be called human?
Is it just the most handsome face that possess humaness?


:?:

Are you honestly curious about these things? Are you asking these questions to better understand, or to find a reason to not understand? The difference is small, but it is everything.


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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Quote:
That's near impossible to know.


So we cannot comment with any evidentiary confidence (which is what the objective of science is) if it was in fact the environment itself that caused rapid change.
Confidence without evidence. This is true, no?


Quote:
There are assumptions, we aren't omniscient. There could be errors, but it is very close. A lot can be inferred from partial remains.


How many errors?
Do we know?
If we don't know, how do we know "it is very close"?

Quote:
Are you honestly curious about these things? Are you asking these questions to better understand, or to find a reason to not understand? The difference is small, but it is everything.


No, Interbane, I'm being dishonest here.
Just like I am with Climate Change.

Which of the faces is a Human Being, Interbane?



Last edited by ant on Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:05 am
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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
Quote:
So we cannot comment with any evidentiary confidence (which is what the objective of science is) if it was in fact the environment itself that caused rapid change.
Confidence without evidence. This is true, no?


Yes, we can say with confidence. The mechanism is well understood.

The environment is a category of things. Is there anything that doesn't fall into that category that has been known to cause changes? Do us a favor and give us your hypothesis. I'd love to see alternatives to the dominant paradigm. Provide an alternative hypothesis that is as well evidenced as the one we currently have.

Quote:
How many errors?
Do we know?
If we don't know, how do we know "it is very close"?


What you actually mean is, how do we know with certainty. We don't, so stop expecting it, even in inference.

We know we're close because we've done many reconstructions of existing creatures from fossils.

I don't think you care about "how" we know. You're merely questioning it to appear skeptical, which is pseudo-skepticism. Why not read a book on the topic of phenotypic restoration from fossil remains?

Quote:
Which of the faces is a Human Being, Interbane?

It depends on your criteria for demarcation. Is it a visceral thing, where we draw the line where we say "that doesn't look like a human?" Or is it a percentage of DNA shared? Or the ability to reproduce? Your question doesn't mean anything to me ant, because it assumes we cut nature at the knees. The lines we draw in categorizing things are artificial lines. The truth of the matter is more of a gradient. Draw your line on that gradient where you will, but wherever we draw it is an abstract point.


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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
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Many paleontologists don't accept the incompleteness of the fossil record argument.


What are you talking about Flann? Fossilization is a rare process. That's a fact, not an argument.


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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
ant wrote:
I didnt see at which point self awareness arose?


I doubt there was a single point of self awareness, but if there was it would have happened long before homo sapiens arrived on the scene. Since many animals are self aware to varying degrees, including the apes, it would make sense that self awareness came about in degrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness


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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
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The mechanism is well understood. 


Actually its not "well understood" particularly as it relates to complexity.
This is Interbane falsely misrepresenting science.
There are other forces that are not yet fully understood.
Organisms may already be equipped with flexibility to change their physical structure. Genes may work in conjunction with the environment: how they do IS NOT WELL UNDERSTOOD.

Too many false representations of TOE by neo darwininsts.
No honest discussion is possible really



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Post Re: Cool visualization of human evolution
geo wrote:
ant wrote:
I didnt see at which point self awareness arose?


I doubt there was a single point of self awareness, but if there was it would have happened long before homo sapiens arrived on the scene. Since many animals are self aware to varying degrees, including the apes, it would make sense that self awareness came about in degrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness


We dont know, it just happened in degrees, huh?



Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:58 pm
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