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Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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youkrst

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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ant wrote:Replace "religious" with "ideology" of ANY kind and you have the potential/motivation for crimes against people.
yeah you're right as usual ant, i don't think anyone is saying anything different.

it's just that the "ideology" du jour causing consternation, to put it too mildly, is the one that says

kill the infidel and pretend you are a hero for allah, when in fact they are just plain deluded homicidal sociopaths.

speaking of which

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014 ... -kill-1147
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DWill

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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But youkrst, are they really "just plain deluded homicidal sociopaths," no different from James Holmes who shot up a crowded movie theatre in Aurora, Colo. a while back? His delusion of being some badass Batman villian wasn't gonna spread to anyone else and wasn't shared in any sense. With the current wave of "in the name of" killings, we have the killers representing themselves as instruments of the deity, an idea that can, and does, attract followers. What produced James Holmes isn't at all clear, with some blaming the culture of guns and violence, or maybe video games, or maybe just aberrant genes. What might have produced the jihadi killers is somewhat clearer, though religion is only one of the causes.
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DWill

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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Flann 5 wrote: I take your point about rationalising what is barbarous murder,still I think all that can alleviate these things whether within Islam or outside it is worth investigating and implementing where possible.
I don't really disagree with what you've said, Flann 5. Yes, there are fronts we should be working to try to diminish the attractiveness to young men (and some women) of violent jihad. But I'm just saying that,when the context is events such as happened in France recently and in much worse fashion in Africa, it seems almost obscene to then refer to mitigating causes. That is not the time to talk about changing the climate, because it needs to be clear that not an ounce of leeway can be given to these men. That is brutal reality, and we also need total commitment from everyone to anathematizing what they and others have done, so it will be less likely to continue.
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Taylor

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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DWill; with all the hang-ups these jihadist exhibit, how can they not be out of their minds. I mean, I could imagine just hanging out with them would be unpleasant to say the least. I get that they are people, their routines are not likely that unusual when their not involved in their day job of being a jihadist. Holmes took his crazy to the realm he's comfortable with. If their is hate in my heart, it is beyond doubt for what these people have done not just to society but to their victims.
youkrst

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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DWill, I didn't mean that "deluded homicidal sociopaths" is all they are, some of them might be quite good cooks for example and who knows, perhaps minus American aggression and interference and minus crappy Islamic doctrines etc they would have been damn fine fellows.

Like a malformed tree, it might have grown fine if it had got what it needed.

Reminds me of that saying that if you want good people to do bad things you need religion. And poverty and lies etc etc

That's one of the terrible things about religion it gets you to see the unbeliever as fair game, after all God is just gonna send 'em to hell anyway, why not do the almighty a favour.

And as ant so rightly points out it's not only world religions that harbour this sort of stuff political ideologies also guilty.

I favour seeing people as people with no excuses or exemptions based on what you think religiously or ideologically, murder is murder, dumb is dumb

If you don't want to be murdered don't murder

But this seems to be too hard to grasp when you are doing the work of the lord or Allah or some or other ideology.

But it seems we are saddled with a whole bunch of people that are already poisoned with bad ideas.
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Taylor

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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youkrst wrote:
some of them might be quite good cooks for example
:lol: :roll: its just dam funny!
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Flann 5
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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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DWill wrote:But I'm just saying that,when the context is events such as happened in France recently and in much worse fashion in Africa, it seems almost obscene to then refer to mitigating causes. That is not the time to talk about changing the climate, because it needs to be clear that not an ounce of leeway can be given to these men. That is brutal reality, and we also need total commitment from everyone to anathematizing what they and others have done, so it will be less likely to continue.
Hi Dwill. Thanks for starting this thread and discussion here. When we see the barbarity of these murders of school children and journalists there is really nothing that could mitigate such actions.
I suppose I'm thinking of what explains how they arrive at this point rather than mitigates these atrocities in any way.

There does seem to be tribalism involved as well in some cases between Sunni and Shiite Muslims for example. I watched some footage of I.S. fanatics roadblocking truckers in Iraq and interrogating them about how many times they kneeled during prayer to determine if they were Sunni or Shiite Muslims,and coldly shooting them when they failed this question.
The wrong religious belief is enough for these guys to kill others it appears.
Their grisly videos complete with music glorify these actions as somehow virtuous.It is truly mindboggling how the murders of schoolchildren could be conceived of in this way and is extremely warped to put it mildly.
Muslim clerics who condemn such actions take their lives in their hands and some have been murdered for doing that.

I listened to an interview with the B.B.C. foreign correspondent John Simpson. Groups like I.S. simply will not be allowed to succeed. Whatever the politics of these things they are likely to be crushed militarily in the long run.
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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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Song lyrics that glorify violence are hardly uncommon. But a prosecutor in California says one rapper's violent lyrics go beyond creative license to conspiracy. San Diego-based rapper Tiny Doo has already spent eight months in prison, and faces 25 years to life in prison if convicted under a little-known California statute that makes it illegal to benefit from gang activities.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/23/entertain ... index.html
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But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
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youkrst

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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Tiny Doo! what kind of rapper name is that, surely Enormous Doo, Humungous Doo, or is it a case of less is more? :-D

makes you think though

maybe they could arrest some actors for starring in movies that glorify drug taking :lol:

what a world

reminds me of that song

live and let die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2hKzZss5Y
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DWill

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Re: Confused about Charlie Hebdo aftermath?

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Taylor wrote:DWill; with all the hang-ups these jihadist exhibit, how can they not be out of their minds. I mean, I could imagine just hanging out with them would be unpleasant to say the least. I get that they are people, their routines are not likely that unusual when their not involved in their day job of being a jihadist. Holmes took his crazy to the realm he's comfortable with. If their is hate in my heart, it is beyond doubt for what these people have done not just to society but to their victims.
Thanks, Taylor. Of course, I don't know what the reality is with the various attackers. In the case of the strategists that put plots together, we have extremely rational people of whom we can't say, unfortunately, that they're mentally ill. Very likely they draw to their cause some other people more on the fringe in terms of mental health. Sanity is largely a matter of a shared norm. Under the pull of religion or patriotism, a group can adopt a norm that seems insane to the rest of the world.
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