ant wrote:In Sagan and recently NTD, you get simpleton accusations like "how horrible the church and only the church has been" or "science and reason saved us all "

if i put your statement in less strident terms

A: thoughts like "how horrible the church has been" or "science and reason are much better"

contrast this modified statement with an opposing statement

B: thoughts like "how good the church has been" or "science and reason are much worse"

A: seems self evident B: seems absurd

ant wrote:A common mistake of historical laymen and amateurs like Sagan is that they judge a time and people of the past based on current values and capabilities. Mostly for rhetorical purposes.
What you get is a very watered down version of history.

And, yet, they used to burn people at the stake for being witches. hard to sugarcoat that.

So it seems Sagan has a point that people used to be much more superstitious than they are today.

"And yet" does nothing to invalidate the point.

Neither does a "maybe so, but...,"

In the case of witchcraft, the idea that old women were plotting to root out Christian folk and destroy Christendom made sense to people who were already worried about how their society could reproduce itself and continue" - "Witch Craze"

Christian's killing Christian's, for the purpose's of food and sex. The Roper book does look like it provides great detail, as it should, it being based on the singular topic of witch's, CS's watered down version spares us some of the more glamorous aspects of witch hunting for sure, instead he uses his hunts to demonstrate the idea that as societies advance in time, so to their superstitions.

geo wrote:

And, yet, they used to burn people at the stake for being witches. hard to sugarcoat that.

So it seems Sagan has a point that people used to be much more superstitious than they are today.

People used to gather in crowds to watch people being burned, have their heads chopped off, or dangle on a hangman's rope. Nothing to do with superstition that......just the cruelty thought acceptable because - everybody did it.

Eventually, the concept of compassion seems to seep through - it different times in different parts of the world. I hope so anyway.

Taylor wrote:

In the case of witchcraft, the idea that old women were plotting to root out Christian folk and destroy Christendom made sense to people who were already worried about how their society could reproduce itself and continue" - "Witch Craze"

Christian's killing Christian's, for the purpose's of food and sex. The Roper book does look like it provides great detail, as it should, it being based on the singular topic of witch's, CS's watered down version spares us some of the more glamorous aspects of witch hunting for sure, instead he uses his hunts to demonstrate the idea that as societies advance in time, so to their superstitions.

Yes , Christians killing Christians
And secularists have killed Christians.

And secularists have killed secularists
And Christians have killed secularists

And non religious people have killed religious people.
and religious people have killed non religious people.


Im not sure there is evidence for your claim that as societies advance so do superstitions.
Advance how? Technologically?

ant wrote:Im not sure there is evidence for your claim that as societies advance so do superstitions.

I'm sure there are a mix of old and new superstitions all around us. A coworker thinks it's bad luck to have an airplane's shadow pass over us.

Fundamentalist Muslims - cutting off the heads of the infidel on YouTube, so that their families can see it. Has there ever been anything so barbaric? Yes......but it doesn't look like we're making much progress to me.

Ant wrote:
Advance how? Technologically?

In a sense, sure, CS takes us from demons to witch's to UFO's and aliens. and asks how much cultural zeitgeist has changed.

Quote:
Ant wrote:
Advance how? Technologically?




In a sense, sure, CS takes us from demons to witch's to UFO's and aliens. and asks how much cultural zeitgeist has changed.

Carl does it from a scientific viewpoint. And I agree with him that we owe so, so much to science. Life is infinitely less painful because of the advancement of science.

But advancement in science is not the only path. Wisdom is more important than knowledge. Kindness is more important than cleverness. Do you notice that Carl's questions to the aliens, is about how clever they are......but advancement of beings is more than about cleverness....Advancement is also about grace, compassion, kindness. Being confident enough to be kind and caring.