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Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma 
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 Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma



Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
wow, that was a short chapter! It would have been a lot shorter if the author didn't say there wasn't official explanation for the Church's change of heart to non whites three times.

Was this really enough material for a chapter?


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Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:31 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
it's amazing though how "faith" seems to defeat logic and sense, i mean these guys just go along making stuff up, contradicting themselves, changing the story at will, and people just go along with it rather than face the showdown with truth.

i suppose for some the thought of overturning their faulty foundation is just too much to bear so they kind of accept the obvious inconsistencies instead.

i wonder what the "defection" rate is, the escape ratio, how many make it out alive enough to recover somewhat.

the psychology is amazing, truly the most dangerous thing in the world is between our ears, or someone elses.



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Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:22 am
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
this is a struggle for most religions. I saw something interesting where the science advisor to the pope recommended against making a statement about evolution (i think it was evolution). his reasoning was that science is changeable. Who knows, maybe we'll scientifically find an idea that works even better than evolution, sort of how Einstein's idea's on gravity replaced Newton's. His logic was that science can change, but the pope is supposed to be infallible. Therefore, any statement can set up the papacy for being wrong in the future. The pope did make the statement, but now we see the potential problem.

It's even harder to get it right if you are a person trying to figure it out, without lots of people with Phd's advising you.

It took hundreds of years for the church to say the earth goes around the sun. As rationalist, we are amazed at the inconsistencies. But for a true believer, all of this can be explained away.


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Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:17 am
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
As ginof said, this was an extremely short chapter, but an important one. Not so much on the racial issue, but for its showing of how what Prophet Joseph Smith said is an "eternal truth," until Prophet Brigham Young gets a later clarification from God. which becomes an "eternal truth" until a later Prophet gets an updated revelation. :?

To get a quick view on why black people were banned from the priesthood, check out the subject "The God Makers" on YouTube. I saw this film (the first version) many years ago, and also read the book. For a short animated 'history' try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuO2Ov_D08c.

There are almost too many entries to count under this topic on You Tube. :o :wink:

Of course, Mormons do not hold a monopoly on Biblical justification for racism. Two quotes from Genesis:

"...And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." Genesis 4:15 (KJV).

"And he [Noah] said Cursed by Canaan [son of Ham and grandson of Noah]..." Genesis 10:25 (KJV).

Racist 'Christians' have been using these verses for centuries to claim that Cain and later Ham (or Canaan or both) were turned black, an thus all dark skinned peoples are cursed by God. :o


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Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Why would a black person even consider being a part of any religion? Why are they satisfied with a white God? I don't get it. Why would black people want to be a part of a racist community, yet a racist church? Even though the Mormons changed the rules on race doesn't mean they feel any different about it. They change their minds more often than their holy underwear. They will do anything to get more people into their flawed belief system. If I was religious and black, I would have changed race on the God and his sidekick, long ago. I don't think there is anything in the bible stating color, but then I am not a big bible buff.


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Cattleman: I did find it interesting that those verses are used as the justification. While it does say to "mark" those people, the verses don't say what the mark is. While I'm not familiar with the lineage, why isn't the mark something like webbed toes or being cross eyed? From what little there is in the verse, I don't see any justification for one vs. the other. Am I missing something?


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
I actually had the opportunity to discuss this with the Mormon missionaries that came to my house when I lived in CA. The very young, and likely not given a better reason by her elder, elder told me it was because they (meaning African-Americans and others of color) did not *deserve* the priesthood. Until the 1970's, whole groups of people weren't worthy because they hadn't absorbed enough good "European" behavior.

The kid really believed this. And when he left, I was all over my phone calling people. I love talking to the missionaries.



Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:20 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Mahree wrote:
I don't think there is anything in the bible stating color


Saint Paul said in Christ all are one, and there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female.

More pointedly, Christ says in the Beatitudes that the meek will inherit the earth, and the least will be first, while the Blessed Virgin Mary asserts that the kingdom of God will involve a social revolution with the hungry full of good things and the rich cast down. All these claims are deeply anti-racist, indicating that racism is an evil that is incompatible with true Christian love and worship.


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Thank you! I was worried I might spend the remainder of my life in wonder. I will stick to Mormonism, one religion is far too much for me as it is.


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"The Kennedy Half-Dollar" is an eclectic and unconventional true crime memoir.
The story is about a young woman, Seely, that finds herself caught in a nightmare with the Hawaiian Mafia. Her coworker is found dead in a cane field one morning and from that point on, Seely tries to escape their clutches. After many years she is forced to face her connection.

There are songs posted throughout the chapters. Play the music while you read. It maybe hard at first, but after the second or third song, it seems strange without. I could not write without music. What isn't expressed in my words is still in the song.


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
What I don't understand is, why would someone want to be a part of a group that doesn't want or respect them as a human being? Why in the world would someone want to be where they are not wanted? Yes, it is wrong of Mormons, but what is right about them?
And Ginof, you aren't missing anything. The person that wrote it is missing a few screws. How can we analyze something that was no more than a travelling medicine show, only selling front row seats in Kolob. Religion can change its rules at any given time.

Like the Vatican astronomer that came out with an article saying it was okay for Catholics to believe in aliens. The rules are forever changing and people are alright with that.


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"The Kennedy Half-Dollar" is an eclectic and unconventional true crime memoir.
The story is about a young woman, Seely, that finds herself caught in a nightmare with the Hawaiian Mafia. Her coworker is found dead in a cane field one morning and from that point on, Seely tries to escape their clutches. After many years she is forced to face her connection.

There are songs posted throughout the chapters. Play the music while you read. It maybe hard at first, but after the second or third song, it seems strange without. I could not write without music. What isn't expressed in my words is still in the song.


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
ginof, I have always favored the idea that the "mark of Cain" was something like a birthmark. And it referred specifically to Cain; no mention of the mark being carried by his descendants. Of course, of whom was Cain afraid? :? If I read Genesis correctly, after Cain killed Abel, there were only three people on Earth; Adam, Eve, and Cain. But a few verses later, it talks about Cain's wife. Where did she come from? :? As the defense attorney in the play and movie "Inherit the Wind" comments, "Did someone else pull off another creation over in the next county?" :lol: :lol:


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Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:42 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Mahree wrote:
What I don't understand is, why would someone want to be a part of a group that doesn't want or respect them as a human being? Why in the world would someone want to be where they are not wanted?


not to go down a political rant, but today we have the log cabin republicans!


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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
responding to youkrst
Quote:
the psychology is amazing, truly the most dangerous thing in the world is between our ears


Consider that for the first tens of thousands of years religion was the best effort at using that dangerous thing between a human's ears. Religion was science. It was that body of human knowledge and activity that attempted to make sense of the natural world and exert some control over it through worship and ritual. It's only in the last few hundred years that humans have accumulated the knowledge and technology to develop natural (as opposed to spiritual) explanations that are verifiable. So religion is undergoing a revolution in its scope and purpose--if it can't be relied upon to explain natural phenomena like drought, earthquakes, skin color or the differences between the sexes then what leverage does it have to dictate behavior and morals? It has to discover a completely new purpose that is utterly divorced from natural phenomena of any sort. That leads to people like the pope's adviser suggesting that it might be better to say nothing at all about science, lest they say something that turns out to be wrong and so hurt the "credibility" of the church.
Coincidentally, the Mormon leadership made a huge statement this past weekend about past errors of the church:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... takes.html



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Post Re: Ch. 6: White or Wrong: Racist Dogma
Comments on chapter 6: This was an astonishingly weak chapter. I'd have liked to have seen a clearer and more detailed timeline for the evolution of LDS policy regarding race. And what does available data say about the current racial distribution of church membership? How does the church handle missionary work in Africa? The book seems to suggest the LDS does not conduct missions in Africa, which a quick google proves incorrect. What is the church presence in African-American communities? What positions of leadership do African-Americans currently hold, and what do they continue to be denied? This was kind of a throw-away chapter. Pretty disappointing.



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