"It may be that we can never really escape the religious dimensions of life, especially where faith is involved...and when seemingly impossible choices are part of the equation (and they seem to be whenever anything really important is at stake) faith is always involved."

We've been without religion before, I'm sure we can live without it again. Religious faith will die off, but simple philosophical faith will continue.

"And, it may be that some degree of denial is required to make impossible changes"

If it's impossible, what makes you think change is possible? That's self-contradictory. I could see that if we believe it's impossible, change could still be possible. But in that respect, the only worthwhile goals aren't metaphysical.

Interbane: We've been without religion before.

Well...I don't think this is true...it certainly isn't true today, hasn't been true for the last, say, 10,000 years. I don't know what you mean by "we" in this statement.

Interbane: I'm sure we can live without it again. Religious faith will die off, but simple philosophical faith will continue.

Considering overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I think you flirting with the impossible. Care to distinguish between religious faith and philosophical faith?

Interbane: If it's impossible, what makes you think change is possible? That's self-contradictory.

This is why faith is more than philosophical assertions about the way the world works...it is trusting action working to transform the world as it is into what it should be : which is often an impossible task...but important nonetheless. Included in this is contradiction as well as confrontation: faith intervenes and interrupts the normal course of events...it exposes the unacceptable in existence and works towards a hope for something different: and often, especially when it really matters (like Climate Change) that hope is seemingly impossible.

"Well...I don't think this is true...it certainly isn't true today, hasn't been true for the last, say, 10,000 years. I don't know what you mean by "we" in this statement."

You and I, before we were indoctrinated. Our ancestors, before the arrival of structured religion - different connotation of the term and completely different in my book.

"Considering overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I think you flirting with the impossible. Care to distinguish between religious faith and philosophical faith?"

Religious faith is belief that requires a huge jump. There is only the bible to support that belief, the rest is insubstantial. Philosophical faith is simple faith, the faith in our senses, and the minor leap of faith after profound evidence and reasoning.

Evidence to the contrary of what? That religion will die off? I think it's inevitable. I think that for peace and prosperity, religion must die off.

"This is why faith is more than philosophical assertions about the way the world works...it is trusting action working to transform the world as it is into what it should be."

This is why religion must die off. People who have such absolute faith believe so strongly that they are correct. Who gave you the authority to decide what way the world should be? Are you going to rampage against science, refuse to love humanity as you love you murderous God, and even condone genocide?

Interbane: You and I, before we were indoctrinated.

How do you know this? Where have you tapped the "unindoctrinated mind" and how did you do it?

Interbane: Our ancestors, before the arrival of structured religion

Again, how do you know what our ancestors believed and thought and considered crucial? And when was the arrival of "structured religion" in this complex mix? I think the evidence, again, paints a much more complex picture where it becomes clear that sacrifice, altars, and other signs of identifying the sacred fill their ancient world...just as they fill ours.

Interbane: Evidence to the contrary of what? That religion will die off? I think it's inevitable. I think that for peace and prosperity, religion must die off.

There is no evidence to support the inevitable death of religion. This is sheer wishful thinking on your part: wishing for the impossible...which, I think, belies your own religious imagination and wishes. What a connundrum: your fantasy for the death of religion is really a religious fantasy...the circle goes round and round.

Interbane: This is why religion must die off. People who have such absolute faith believe so strongly that they are correct. Who gave you the authority to decide what way the world should be? Are you going to rampage against science, refuse to love humanity as you love you murderous God, and even condone genocide?

First, it is astonishing that you don't see the same sort of absolute faith that drives your own demand that religion must die ! But, alas, religion can sometimes make people blind to the obvious...and perhaps to make real change, the obvious cannot dictate principles or choices. As for who gave me the authority...who gives anybody the authority to envision the world they want to live in: to change the way things are for another way? Are you suggesting none of us should try to change the world?

Condoning genocide?

"How do you know this? Where have you tapped the "unindoctrinated mind" and how did you do it?"

It was a semi-joke. Were you indoctrinated through you mother's womb?

"Again, how do you know what our ancestors believed and thought and considered crucial?"

Why should I need to know? Show me evidence that structured religion existed all the way back to the birth of man.

"There is no evidence to support the inevitable death of religion."

The evidence to support the death of religion is that there's no evidence for religion.

"First, it is astonishing that you don't see the same sort of absolute faith that drives your own demand that religion must die."

That isn't absolute faith, don't assume to judge my simple faith as absolute or religous Faith.

"As for who gave me the authority...who gives anybody the authority to envision the world they want to live in: to change the way things are for another way? Are you suggesting none of us should try to change the world?"

Who gave the authority to Hitler to attempt to change the world? There's evidence he'd taken authority from the bible, quoting it numerous times. Yes, we should attempt to change the world, but not with religous Faith as our guide.

"Condoning genocide?"

Sorry if you don't condone genocide, but you deserve this attributed to you due to how obscure your posts are. Try making coherent posts instead of the normal gibberish and I'm sure there would be less misunderstanding.

Interbane: Sorry if you don't condone genocide, but you deserve this attributed to you due to how obscure your posts are. Try making coherent posts instead of the normal gibberish and I'm sure there would be less misunderstanding.

Adieu Interbane, no need to continue talking with you. Thank you for sharing.

As for genocidal attributes, I think the murderous assertion that "religion must die" carries a great deal of violent and deadly potential.

Dissident Heart wrote: In the context of Al Gore's Certainty: his choice to turn the tide and work against the seemingly inevitable by way of a hope and trust in the seemingly impossible is an act of Faith.

I can envision saying of someone that he or she evinced great faith in working for/fighting for some cause, without connecting the actions to religious faith. And I do not believe that such actions have to have religious faith underlying them. I won't argue about your broad definition of the word.

I do have to again complain of hypocrisy in Al Gore, though. I can't see any justification or excuse for him to use 20 times more energy per month in his home than the average American. Buying up carbon credits in expiation is a charade.

DH: "Adieu Interbane, no need to continue talking with you. Thank you for sharing."

This thread holds the greatest amount of coherent posts I've seen from you, and I appreciate that. If you decide to stop talking to me, please don't go back to preaching.

I find it interesting that when the topic shifted to the death of religion, you perked up and wrote rational replies, as if you considered that do be a very dangerous to your crusade on these forums. It must really irk you to know deep down that religion will inevitably die off.

DH: "As for genocidal attributes, I think the murderous assertion that "religion must die" carries a great deal of violent and deadly potential."


There is nothing wrong with wishing dead a belief system responsible for the torture and death of millions.

Vicious. Nice rebuts Interbane, DH can keep pace though, watch your back!!



You one with Jedi, him only know mind trick. - Yoda

Hi, everyone. After putting the book aside for almost a month, I just read the Faith chapter. Despite all the discussion in this thread, I didn't get much out of the chapter itself.

Some of the basic ideas were reasonable. Most people seek some sort of meaning or purpose in life. That purpose emerges based on a person's temperament and experiences, as opposed to being something that can be decided upon rationally.

Though I understood Burton's sentences, it wasn't clear to me what point we has making. Maybe that's because neither science nor religion provides meaning to my life. Instead, my inner purpose is tied to my desires, struggles, goals, relationships, and experiences. That's less grand than the stuff Burton was focusing on, but it feels much more relevant.