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Ch. 1: Angels and Devils 
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 Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
Ch. 1: Angels and Devils



Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
The Second Great Awakening was quite a time in American religious history. Not only :? in upstate New York, but other areas as well. In Kentucky and Pennsylvania, the Stone-Campbell movement gave rise to a new denomination which later split into two, today's Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and the Church of Christ. Of course these were not the Adventist type churches Fitzgerald discusses. But, while the Adventist churches have pretty well died out, the Adventists remain. It is not hard to find a Millieniest, as some like to be called, everywhere. During the 1970s, I was given a copy of Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth." And among the Internet prophets, you can find J. D. Farag and his Aloha Ministries. So jit is not too surprising that Joseph Smith was able to scare up followers. While not well educated, it is obvious that Smith was intelligent, cunning, and had quite a persuasive personality. :twisted:


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Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:36 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
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The region itself became known as the “Burned-Over District,” in honor of the way it was repeatedly overrun by one religious craze after another.



fascinating!



Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:22 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
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“Joe Smith never handled one shovel of earth in those diggings. All Smith did was to peep with stone and hat, and give directions where and how to dig...Smith said if he should work with his hands at digging there, he would lose the power to see with the stone.”viii



:lol:



Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:29 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
i like this writers style, very flowing, ongoing, he doesn't get in the way at all and keeps it bounding along. The next nugget is only ever a few words away so it's the opposite of stodgy or ego bound, the life force of the subject itself is well cared for.



Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:44 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
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Martin being naturally a credulous man, hands Joseph the money.”



:lol:



Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:47 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
I'm having a tough time with the writing style. If you are going to take something like a religion apart, you should be rigorous about it. If you are not, you should have a great writing style. Sort of like Mark Twain's "Christian Science". The first part really cracked me up, and the second part is a logical annihilation. But this writing style is not doing either. The writer does not have Twain's wit (to be fair, few ever have) and bounces from one thing to another too readily. The fact that it is footnoted is what is keeping me in there. But the style (explain a story and then say, well, maybe it was different depending who you ask) isn't "academic" enough for me. Am glad that others appear to be liking the style.


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Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:36 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
what I find particularly damning is the multiple first accounts and the idea that Smith was preparing himself to receive the tablets while being convicted of fraud. I would like the author to spend a little more time talking about how believers explain that away.


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Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:40 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
youkrst wrote:
i like this writers style,


ginof wrote:
I'm having a tough time with the writing style.


ginof wrote:
Am glad that others appear to be liking the style.


yes, it's fascinating how different readers each bring a whole new world with them as far as requirements, expectations, experiences, inclinations etc etc

music is like that too where particular listeners may react or not react to certain forms or whatknot

an intriguing thing to me. that these works are like only half the equation where the reader/listener is bringing a lot to the result as well.

in my case liking a breezy style to avoid anything too stodgy which might nod me off to sleep (being sleep deprived).



Last edited by youkrst on Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
ginof wrote:
what I find particularly damning is the multiple first accounts and the idea that Smith was preparing himself to receive the tablets while being convicted of fraud.


yeah it was the same here, wow! the picture was pretty clear, this guy is a shyster.

ginof wrote:
I would like the author to spend a little more time talking about how believers explain that away.


yeah would be interesting to hear the mormon apology on it all, i just assumed from past experience that they would try and ignore it and brand anyone who brought it up as a "troublemaker"



Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
ginof wrote:
Mark Twain's "Christian Science".


While I am waiting for the Book on Mormons, I might read Twain's critical expose, available at Gutenberg. I have a relative who is a Christian Scientist.

The wiki page says a commentator wrote that "Twain was "ambivalent" towards Christian Science", despite Twain calling Mary Baker Eddy "grasping, sordid, penurious, famishing for everything she sees—money, power, glory—vain, untruthful, jealous, despotic, arrogant, insolent, pitiless ... illiterate, shallow, incapable of reasoning outside of commercial lines, immeasurably selfish."

Believers can readily make a silk purse from a sow's ear, if their facility for ignoring things they don't wish to see is strong enough.


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Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:31 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
I think we all may get little confused by some of Fitzgerald's writing style. I may have a leg up on many due to my personal experiences with the Mormons. As I was reading this chapter (and some of the later ones) I thought "Were all the people at this time so gullible?" Then I remembered Jim Jones and Jonestown, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, and the many other cults that have sprung up in my own lifetime.

And don't hesitate to do a little independent research; even look up some of the 'official' LDS websites for their viewpoint.


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Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
Cattleman wrote:
As I was reading this chapter (and some of the later ones) I thought "Were all the people at this time so gullible?" Then I remembered Jim Jones and Jonestown, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, and the many other cults that have sprung up in my own lifetime.


yes we humans seem to be very prone to this sort of mis-direction.

i saw an interesting ted talk about lying where the expert was saying that the person lied to is complicit in the deception which was an interesting point vis a vis dubious belief systems.

we want to believe so we suspend criticism kind of thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_6vDLq64gE

she says "if we don't want to be decieved we must be aware of what we are hungry for" ie. spiritual significance, security etc etc because that hunger of ours, whatever it may be, functions like a hook to drag us in.

much as Robert was expressing

Quote:
Believers can readily make a silk purse from a sow's ear, if their facility for ignoring things they don't wish to see is strong enough.



Last edited by youkrst on Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:00 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
Quote:
Twain calling Mary Baker Eddy "grasping, sordid, penurious, famishing for everything she sees—money, power, glory—vain, untruthful, jealous, despotic, arrogant, insolent, pitiless ... illiterate, shallow, incapable of reasoning outside of commercial lines, immeasurably selfish."


:lol: you've been Twained :lol:



Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1: Angels and Devils
if you are going to read Twain's "Christian Science", I would recommend reading only the first part, where Twain tells the fictional (I hope!) tale of an interaction with a Christian Scientist while on a holiday in a foreign land. It had me rolling! I found the rest of the book to be not worth my time as it spoke to issues that occurred in their lifetime. It was an exacting study, but not nearly as entertaining as the first part!


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Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:18 pm
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