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Carrier on miracles 
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Spinoza: "Nor does God perform miracles, since there are no departures whatsoever from the necessary course of nature. The belief in miracles is due only to ignorance of the true causes of phenomena."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/

This reminds me of Arthur C. Clarke's three laws of prediction, particularly no. 3 . . .

Clarke's Three Laws are three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


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ant
Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
Do you consult the THEOLOGY of different religions to help you understand the world? Not scientists who believe in God. You missed the entire point, or pretended to miss it, as usual.


This has never been disputed by me and I've addressed this question a couple of times here on BT.

Thanks



Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:47 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Flann wrote:

Quote:
The theist says God does do things,the naturalist that everything must have a natural explanation. Most things do but does everything?
John Lennox gave a talk on the subject;Is belief in the supernatural irrational? He begins with familiar arguments and around 35 minutes in gets into the whole miracles question.


I've recently read that protestant theologians have always been traditionally more suspicious of miracles than Catholics (which makes sense, given the history of the two).

German theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher went as far as redefining 'miracle" as "merely the religious name for 'event' rather than as a happening which violated the laws of nature"
A miracle was in the eye of the believer.

Also, the new atheist may not know this, but it was not Richard Dawkins who introduced a "god of the gaps"

Evangelical theologian Henry Drummond, in a 1893 series of lectures discussed the proper attitude to the theory of evolution and told his audience that a miracle "was not something quick" it was rather the whole slow process of evolution that was miraculous.
Further, in these same lectures, Drummond introduced the idea of "God of the gaps"

Quote:
He spoke of those reverent minds who ceaselessly scan the fields of Nature and the books of Science to search for gaps - gaps which they will fill up with God. As if God lived in the gaps. God, should be sought in human knowledge, not in human ignorance.
-- Science and Religion: A Very Short Introduction - by Thomas Dixon

I echo that I strongly suspect most new atheists think this idea was first introduced by Richard Dawkins when in fact it was hijacked (new atheists love hijacking ideas) from a theist!!

:)



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:19 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
ant wrote:
Quote:
Do you consult the THEOLOGY of different religions to help you understand the world? Not scientists who believe in God. You missed the entire point, or pretended to miss it, as usual.


This has never been disputed by me and I've addressed this question a couple of times here on BT.

Thanks


Glad we agree on the uselessness of theology.

Quote:
Also, the new atheist may not know this, but it was not Richard Dawkins who introduced a "god of the gaps"


Try to find a quote of anyone claiming that. You've defeated a phantom in debate once again!



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:32 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
I echo that I strongly suspect most new atheists think this idea was first introduced by Richard Dawkins when in fact it was hijacked (new atheists love hijacking ideas) from a theist!!


Why do you think the misunderstanding is limited to new atheists? Or any group in particular? I do appreciate the history of the concept, but it doesn't matter to me where an idea comes from. It's not as if using the idea it is therefore hijacked. I hijack logic all the time.

Quote:
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Being a lover of sci-fi and fantasy, I use this phrase all the time to justify my writing. Using a good veil of ignorance, you can create appealing magic systems that are naturalistic. The genre is mythic sci-fi.


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Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:40 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
Glad we agree on the uselessness of theology.


No, my answer was more thoughtful than that.

Your philosophy of scientism does injury to Science.

Please change your picture back to that sexual harasser you idolize.
I feel like I'm talking to Santa Claus.



Last edited by ant on Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:41 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
Being a lover of sci-fi and fantasy, I use this phrase all the time to justify my writing. Using a good veil of ignorance, you can create appealing magic systems that are naturalistic. The genre is mythic sci-fi.


Why didn't you thank me a couple of years back when I mentioned that phrase here?

You are so deafly biased.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:43 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
ant wrote:
Quote:
Glad we agree on the uselessness of theology.


No, my answer was more thoughtful than that.

Your philosophy of scientism does injury to Science.

Please change your picture back to that sexual harasser you idolize.
I feel like I'm talking to Santa Claus.


Do you want to claim that theology adds useful knowledge about the world? Doesn't sound like you're able to defend it. You just feel bad about it, because...scientism.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:48 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Dexter wrote:
ant wrote:
Quote:
Glad we agree on the uselessness of theology.


No, my answer was more thoughtful than that.

Your philosophy of scientism does injury to Science.

Please change your picture back to that sexual harasser you idolize.
I feel like I'm talking to Santa Claus.


Do you want to claim that theology adds useful knowledge about the world? Doesn't sound like you're able to defend it. You just feel bad about it, because...scientism.


the definition of "scientism" and my pointing out that you are a philosopher of it speaks for itself.

um.., duh..



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:51 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
ant wrote:

the definition of "scientism" and my pointing out that you are a philosopher of it speaks for itself.

um.., duh..


See you next thread. At least you defeated the phantom about the Dawkins quote.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:55 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
No, my answer was more thoughtful than that.

Your philosophy of scientism does injury to Science.

Please change your picture back to that sexual harasser you idolize.
I feel like I'm talking to Santa Claus.


It's interesting watching you so completely misunderstand someone else for a change. Dexter was saying that the investigation of miracles using different fields changes how we see the miracle. If it's a scientific investigation, the miracle is rightly treated as an anomaly, which aren't rare and aren't special.

You turned 90 degrees and were flabbergasted that he didn't mention how Islam had great scientists. :coco:

Even if Dexter was wrong, or you disagree, or his point was illogical, you simply didn't follow it at all. I agree with him though,and it does relate to ACC's third rule. Maybe there should be a fourth rule: Any sufficiently misunderstood phenomenon is indistinguishable from magic.


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Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:58 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Dexter wrote:
ant wrote:

the definition of "scientism" and my pointing out that you are a philosopher of it speaks for itself.

um.., duh..


See you next thread. At least you defeated the phantom about the Dawkins quote.


Umm, what?

Again, and for the last time.., I've already addressed this a couple of times here on BT.
I made a brief theological and philosophical statement about it.
It might have been when you were absent from BT for a few months.

There's a search function that you are welcomed to utilize.
If you'd like help with it send me a private message and I can walk you through it.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:00 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
This..,

Quote:
I know you're trying to be politically correct, but do you consult Islamic theologians (or pick another religion) to help you understand the world? Of course not, because you know they have nothing useful to teach you unless you're trying to live as a Muslim.


is not this..,


Quote:
Dexter was saying that the investigation of miracles using different fields changes how we see the miracle. If it's a scientific investigation, the miracle is rightly treated as an anomaly, which aren't rare and aren't special.


That was Dexter's initial comment/question.

Islamic scientific contributors did not practice science to "help them live like a Muslim"
He wasn't even referring specifically to miracles.
That's stupid.




I mean, really.
You'd make a horrible lawyer.

If Dexter is having trouble formulating a question he should elaborate.

Your little "Interbane to the rescue" act here is pathetic now.
Stick to your own guns and let others speak for themselves for a change.



Last edited by ant on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:11 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Interbane..,

Look how much time you've spent here telling us what other people meant and telling us what you think.

You are being totally dishonest when you tell Flann that you don't have time to view his links.

The amount of time you spend per day telling other people what you think and why you think what they think is wrong is more than enough to make an honest effort to view what is generously offered to you.

You are just a hawk promoting a hawkish attitude in these discussions.

You don't fool me.



Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:21 am
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Post Re: Carrier on miracles
Quote:
That was Dexter's initial comment/question.


Only in antland. This was Dexter's original comment:

Quote:
And if there was a "Christian miracle" that was of interest to non-Christians, they would just be called scientific anomalies by everyone else. Then people do research on them.


Then he used Islam as the vehicle of the analogy, hoping you would see his point then if he used a different religion. But you misunderstood him.

He asked what Muslim theology has to teach you about the workings of the world(Not Islamic science, but Islamic theology). This is the only interpretation that logically follows from his original comment, and if you had an ounce of intellectual empathy you'd see that.

Quote:
If Dexter is having trouble formulating a question he should elaborate.


You're not even in the ballpark ant. No, he should not reformulate what he's saying. Not even close. I easily understood what he meant, so the issue wasn't his. Instead, you should at least pretend to make an effort understanding him in a favorable fashion. In all your time on Booktalk, if one of the resident agnostic/atheists words say one thing, but you know his intent is slightly different, you always interpret it in the way that isn't intended. You have never once displayed intellectual empathy that I've seen.

As this tangent relates to the thread, Carrier mentioned this in the start of his book. His words should be interpreted in the most charitable fashion if there is any confusion as to what he means. It's a request for the reader to engage in intellectual empathy. Maybe this takes a bit too much intellectual courage for some.

Quote:
You are being totally dishonest when you tell Flann that you don't have time to view his links.


Yep, totally dishonest. Thanks for interpreting my words charitably ant. I couldn't only have been referring to that day or couple of days. I have time to view all links, given the right day. I usually can't view video's, which is what I think you're actually referring to.


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Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:34 am
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