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Both science and religion are wrong

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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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The fabric of spacetime appears to be a quantum foam. So space isn't truly empty. It's a canvas with energy and matter interacting atop it. That canvas can be stretched, which was the point above.

Beyond the edges of the canvas, if the 4 macro and all micro dimensions don't exist, then nothing exists. The fabric doesn't exist. We cannot conceptualize nothingness. That doesn't mean there isn't nothingness, we're just unable to conceptualize it. The best we can imagine is a lack of energy and matter, like a vacuum. But even in a vacuum there is the quantum foam, and all the dimensions are present.

This is all speculative, not financial advice.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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Well, both are wrong in interesting ways. Science gropes toward an understanding of how the universe works, a challenge that may have been demonstrated impossible by the discovery of quantum mechanics, while religion aims to construct a narrative that will shape people's sense of what life is about and their resulting goals.

Is there an earlier thread that is referred to with "the point above"?
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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Well science isn't religion and religion isn't science so YOU have to figure out what they are addressing in their common topic.

Genesis has no human present at Creation so it must be understood to convey what it says is the result and not any 'HOW' beyond Divine cause.
So Maccabees states it thus : I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing [Vulg: ex níhilo],

And that must be right with only the question of "GOD" left as a mystery since the very beginnings of things explain everything else but is itself not explained by what
results from 'it'. THis is the tack of the Book ONE of the Summa Contra Gentiles.

As to science, you trip yourself by taking the laws of the universe and their stability as a given. Look up Dr Leo Smolin to see that if you buy evolution -- I don't -- you need to entertain the possibility that the 'laws' evolved too.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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Genesis has no human present at Creation so it must be understood to convey what it says is the result and not any 'HOW' beyond Divine cause.
Huh? Sez who? Not buying that.

Lee Smolin is a physicist, not sure what he has to do with evolution. Yes, our understanding of the "laws" of nature has changed with increased scientific knowledge.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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:goodpost:
I believe that we cannot fundamentally as humans do not understand anything beyond our biological perception. Science attempts to logically and systematically understand the world to overcome it, in turn attempting to answer many questions we will never have an answer to. Religion throws their hands in the air and designs outlandish and nearly implausible solutions that have no backing besides "Well, there isn't any other solution..." Even philosophy thinks about the world below the surface level, to ask interesting questions and ways to live by, however we are limited by our perception. To get what I mean, for those not following me I'll use a smaller, probably familiar example. We have rules in place, however we are limited in our perception and understanding of them because we are bound by morals taught to us from a young age. We, as fellow humans can break through Our moral compass* with enough thought practice and start to understand the deeper why of a lot of rules, and why they even exist in the first place. Imagine that moral compass our perception, however we are forever bound from birth and cannot break free of it. In the end, both views are wrong, because of the limitations of our biology force us to make up answers, whether they be science driven with logic loops and exceptions, or religious ideas and ideals where stories and tales are taught to explain what we don't know, so we're not stuck wondering why. If something happened not involving our color range, our geometry, our internal clocks etc. We could be at a stalemate like we are now. Either way, whatever conclusion we draw from whatever mindset is almost certainly incorrect. :coco:

*In a philosophical sense, Listen to laws everyone." :btw:
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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It's helpful to think in terms of ends and means. Science aims to describe and understand, and uses whatever methods get there fastest. We can be pretty confident that the discoveries of science are solid, because they keep getting confirmed by further investigation.

Often the tentative interpretations from the evidence are later shown to be wrong, and scientists don't have a big problem with that, but unwary members of the public may feel betrayed by confident statements which later get contradicted by confident statements, which may or may not themselves hold up over time.

Religion does not aim to describe or, in any scientific sense, to understand. Fundamentalism has seriously erred in arguing that it does, but it does not take much reflection or investigation to show that this is completely misguided and should be ignored. Rather, religion aims to guide people in their efforts to find meaning in life and to make good life choices. Arguably this is more important than science's goals, but the question is moot: greater importance does not imply any privilege to deny scientific results. Religion has to accept science because to do otherwise is to reject truth, which is not a helpful way to find meaning in life or make good life choices.

To my mind the problem of fundamentalism comes from a mistaken notion that authoritarian approaches to living are necessary in the face of all the ways we can go wrong. While that kind of ideology may be understandable, we know empirically that more accepting approaches will give better results.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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jossef wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:47 am We can enumerate infinite questions that are not answered in these "scientific" theses, and then we can turn to Darwinism, which also has even more unanswered questions because almost all modern intelligent scientists do not accept Darwinism because it is a very weak explanation of the evolution of life. They accept that every species evolves, but this happens only because there is information embedded in the DNA of that species that helps it to evolve. Without this information, it cannot evolve and they cannot identify the source of this information. Some call it intelligent design, others call it information-driven evolution. So no species can create another species at all, even with the help of genetic engineering.
A lot of the above is wrong. DNA isn't information, for one thing.
jossef wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:47 am "In the beginning," when there was no time, space, or energy, there was only God. Then God created existence.

In this philosophy, God does not exist, but He is, before time and space, and neither time nor space can limit or affect Him. He created the existence by his will (the Christians call it the ward, which is OK, but it is not a spoken word, it is the will), the existence is the sphere of space-time-energy as one entity. Separated afterward, but still, a unity in which our cosmos expands inside it, and in which time flaw inside it and its energy provides the energy of this cosmos and life.
God can't exist and simultaneously not exist. But, I didn't really follow what you were trying to say here.
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Timekeeper Psy wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:09 am Religion throws their hands in the air and designs outlandish and nearly implausible solutions that have no backing besides "Well, there isn't any other solution..." Even philosophy thinks about the world below the surface level, to ask interesting questions and ways to live by, however we are limited by our perception.
In the end, both views are wrong, because of the limitations of our biology force us to make up answers, whether they be science driven with logic loops and exceptions, or religious ideas and ideals where stories and tales are taught to explain what we don't know, so we're not stuck wondering why.
Welcome, Timekeeper Psy.
At the time when both religion and science were first getting started, the process of explaining the world was combined with the process of seeking meaning and justice. They seemed intertwined, and still can seem intertwined. But we are now able to separate the two types of questions. We don't necessarily "make up" answers - in both cases we are trying to discern what makes sense: in explaining the world, and in seeking meaning and justice.

To see this point, one must set aside the mythological side of religion, at least in terms of any effort to explain anything. At worst it is the province of the ignorant, and does not help anyone make sense of meaning. At best it is symbolic of vital psychological forces, in a Jungian sense.

Religion properly addresses itself to spiritual questions, that is, questions concerning how we arrive at the point of choosing good behavior and the fostering of community, and what consequences follow in each case. Choose courageously and, yes, righteously, you become a person of character. Choose expediently and at the expense of others, you become a nasty piece of work.
To get what I mean, for those not following me I'll use a smaller, probably familiar example. We have rules in place, however we are limited in our perception and understanding of them because we are bound by morals taught to us from a young age. We, as fellow humans can break through Our moral compass* with enough thought practice and start to understand the deeper why of a lot of rules, and why they even exist in the first place. Imagine that moral compass our perception, however we are forever bound from birth and cannot break free of it.
People have overcome misguided moral compasses, for example concerning racism or drugs. But in general this is true: the "deeper why" becomes an alignment between what we were taught and what reason leads us to believe in.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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Yes at times "both science and religion are wrong." But consider the vastly different time scales during which they are incorrect. Some aspects of the current consensus of science are almost certainly wrong or incomplete. Although scientific orthodoxies can have powerful support, science tends to question any consensus and is open to better information. Plate tectonics is a good example. That theory was developed during the first half of the last century and was met with ridicule and skepticism. However irrefutable proof was discovered in the mid 60s and plate tectonics is no longer controversial. Textbooks have been upgraded.

However when religion is wrong, it rarely changes. A good example of this is the Hindu caste system as described around 200 BCE in the Baghavad Gita. Since it is prescribed by a sacred text and still practiced today, that system will likely still exist thousands of years from now. That's not to say religion never changes, but actually that is usually due to culture moving away from certain religious edicts. Slavery and killing children used to be acceptable, and although modern Jews and Christians no longer believe this, it's because it would be morally abhorrent for them to advocate those practices. Scriptures cannot be upgraded.
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Re: Both science and religion are wrong

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I think I have jumped into this conversation blindly but… The OP is not impressive.
The so called “big bang” the “singularity” is much more complex than the thesis.
The idea is…universal beginnings.
My favorite thinking is that current universal expansion is happening at such rapid speed that new universes are literally popping in and out of existence at such rates and at such speeds that they are literally undetectable.
We are ( that is current scientific evidence/knowledge unable to push past the intense heat emergent from the earliest moments/thousands of years post inception.
The heat was simply too great for atoms to form…was this quagmire the primordial ooze?
We know that once there was cooling solid matter did indeed form, Gravity, formed from the additional forces generated by empty space. (dark space, dark energy) antimatter.
Early galaxies formed. So on, so forth.

Both science and religion can be wrong. Of the two…which has been the most incorrect?
The rules of “science” require self correction. The more studies, the more falsifiable. Or conclusive.
There is truth to religion. Its truth is preposterous, but it is nonetheless true.
It certainly exists. Religion is real. We see it, we feel it, we touch it.
Mathematics, theoretical physics, geometry, geology, anthropology, cosmology, biology,
Neurology, physiology, astronomy, hydrology, …etc etc etc and so on and so forth can and will be nebulous.
Nebulous to the layman for obvious reason.
Religion is nebulous to the moronic. It feeds the moronic. It feeds the truly empty brain, empty calories as long as its adherents stick to a literal interpretation, any interpretation. Old Testament, New Testament, Muhammad… doesn’t make any difference. Theres is detrimental to the quality of evolving knowledge and life.

So… Israel and Palestine: Is the current situation, religion at its best? Am I wrong? Is this current affair secular? How queer is this hole scene? . Every tribe has its commitment don’t you think?.
How fucked up is the world when we seek an understanding from the Chinese Communist, or the fucking Russians? Or any people really?.
There’s only two sides to this story…Israeli and Palestinian.
Complexity is the rule of the day.
We/I want to empathize with both sides but really…one can’t.
I think back to Bush and Powell…the media…I was against invading Iraq till even I couldn’t get past images of children being killed, raped, degraded in ways that just should not be. We are eye witnesses to the same. It sickens me. Again…is this the fault of religion? Or is this something else?.
As horrible as this situation is and as long term it appears that it will remain…are harsh solutions warranted?.( I should not have to state the meaning of “harsh”).
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