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Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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GOD defiles Reason

Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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Well, okay. I happen to like NoBeliefs.com. But there are lots of articles there, and they're written by several different people. Most importantly, they're not written by Frank. am I having a discussion with NoBeliefs.com or with Frank?It also seems to me that this is one of the problems with political discourse. People seem to be arguing the viewpoint of the others (their pundit heroes, favorite blogs, politicians, etc.) rather than arriving to a rational conclusion on their own and arguing their point from there.What do you think, Frank? And how did you arrive at that opinion?
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Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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[GDR: Our weapons cause terror when they are used no matter what our politicians say "our intentions" are. "Shock and Awe" was an act of terror. Breaking into people's homes and humiliating a father in front of his children is an act of terror. We design weaponry with the purpose of terrorizing our enemy into not fighting. Using weapons of terror on anyone is an act of terror.]Hey, that's war. Any weapon capable of killing multiple persons while making a loud bang is horrifying.[GDR: We say we don't intend to kill civilians, but how many Iraqi civilians has America killed? Compare that to how many American civilians have the Iraqis killed?]We brought the war to their soil it is to be expected even if it is not wanted. Besides the insurgents are rapidly increasing their civilian death count and will soon surpass ours, yet they are not being turned in, or even demonstrated against by Muslims in Iraq or anywhere else. In fact as long as they restrict their attacks to Americans and collation forces the Arab nations as a whole including Iraq would support the action. [GDR: Economic warfare hurt the lower classes of people first. That resulted in a great number of Iraqis dying and suffering needlessly. Our decade long economic sanctions on Iraq amount to an act of terror.]True, but these sanctions are the primary way to recoup wrongs made by an offending country. Sanctions were made to work on the leaders of countries by putting stress on their populace and encouraging the leaders to do what is right, the problem surfaces when the leaders don't give 2 cents for the people they represent.[GDR: So there are times that I don't even agree with the premise that we don't intend to kill civilians.]I will agree that most of our leaders do not for the most part care about the civilians killed in an attack, but the people on the ground have a duty to keep a watch on such things. Our military commanders are held accountable for actions that are as indiscriminate as you make them sound. (They are supposed to be anyway) [GDR: We, as a country, in our short history, have been just as brutal as most empires that have come before us.]Yep, it is a violent world and we had better be able to handle ourselves in it.[GDR: But, Frank, I think you realize how their families probably felt about it.]Not at the time. [GDR: And I think you realize how that shit can be used against us.]Yes, but I never thought the people we were defending would use it like that, but they did. (Lesson learned) [GDR: I think we should have something like a Secretary of History whose purpose is to bring a greater sense of historic significance to the foreign policy making table.]People often discount the importance of history, its sad that we can be so short sited and ignorant of the persistent makeup of human nature.[GDR: I remember thinking: "Hmmm. 48 hours to leave your country. That's two days. Two days for the president of a country to pack his shit, with his belongings scattered in several different house across the country. He's going to have to look for a place to stay.]Funny, I remember thinking; wow this guy can move whole battalions into civilian neighborhoods, he can get his artillery into alleyways next to schools and hospitals, but he can't get his own stuff packed and at least make an honest showing that he intended to leave? All he needed was to show that he was making a sincere attempt; this would have been enough to stall us for some more time. [GDR: But although it is true that there were Arabs dancing in the streets after 9/11, there were also Arabs and Muslims carrying signs in support of the US, and denouncing al Qaeda as being their representative of Islam.]This is true but they never seemed to be as loud or as convincing as the hateful ones. The Muslim US supporters also never did anything to show us that they actually cared. Waving sings aside, the Muslim community has been negligent in its peace loving ideals; they refuse to clean up their own house, and until they do, it will appear to the rest of us that they as a whole support the terrorists through both action and inaction.[GDR: I think it should have been done in a diplomatic capacity, with measured military responses as opposed to a military invasion.]So do I... now.The problem is that that was not possible at the time. On 9/11 a sleeping dragon had been awakened and it was intent on vengeance. Everyone in this country was pissed off, from the president right down to me and my neighbor, a measured response was not a realistic possibility, emotions had been forced out and anything less that a full scale action would have been met with cries of "when will justice be done". Did Saddam's forces really pose a threat? No, but we were not sure at the time and we were hot for blood, any scapegoat would do to quench our blood lust. Now our consciousnesses have caught up with us, and it is easier for us to blame our leaders than to admit we wanted this in the first place. Americans want to believe that we are more civilized than other people and that only through the deceit of a villainous leader would we be part of something so horrible. We are masters of passing the buck, and now we have done something so terrible that we must displace the blame, Americans are just not used to bearing the guilt.Later
GOD defiles Reason

Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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Quote:[GDR: I think it should have been done in a diplomatic capacity, with measured military responses as opposed to a military invasion.]Frank: So do I... now.The problem is that that was not possible at the time.Yes, it was. The bloodlust, the need for vengeance, the hatred for Saddam Hussein was manufactured and manipulated by our government and media. Working hand in hand like two lovers going off on a fishing trip. In the context of 9/11, and the people who perpetrated that crime, Saddam Hussein never had to be mentioned. Quote:On 9/11 a sleeping dragon had been awakened and it was intent on vengeance. Everyone in this country was pissed off, from the president right down to me and my neighbor, a measured response was not a realistic possibility, emotions had been forced out and anything less that a full scale action would have been met with cries of "when will justice be done". Did Saddam's forces really pose a threat? No, but we were not sure at the time and we were hot for blood, any scapegoat would do to quench our blood lust.Hence the ongoing struggle between fanaticism and reason.If we have a president who wants to take his revenge out on Saddam Hussein because of something that al Qaeda did, then we have a real joke for a president.
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Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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FrankQuote:Besides the insurgents are rapidly increasing their civilian death count and will soon surpass ours, yet they are not being turned in, or even demonstrated against by Muslims in Iraq or anywhere else.What are you using to judge this? The last figures I got from the IBC Project (who admit that they underestimate coalition deaths) showed that the insurgents were well behind not only the allied forces but criminals also. I wasn't aware that there'd been such a rapid turn around. In fact, if you include the Iraqi army/police in the coalition forces (as most Iraqis would) if you can believe Tim Collins then the number of deaths that the coalition is responsible for is increasing.Quote:This is true but they never seemed to be as loud or as convincing as the hateful ones.Mate, that's always the way it is. Ask any Arab and they'd say the same to you about the US. You think that the average Arab appreciates the strength of the US anti-war movement? No they think that the vast majority of you guys wanted to invade. All the information we ever get is filtered.Quote:On 9/11 a sleeping dragon had been awakened and it was intent on vengeance. Everyone in this country was pissed off, from the president right down to me and my neighbor, a measured response was not a realistic possibility, emotions had been forced out and anything less that a full scale action would have been met with cries of "when will justice be done". Did Saddam's forces really pose a threat? No, but we were not sure at the time and we were hot for blood, any scapegoat would do to quench our blood lust. If that is true, I'd have hard time understanding how any American can still be pissed off with those country's that weren't drunk on bloodlust.Quote:Now our consciousnesses have caught up with us, and it is easier for us to blame our leaders than to admit we wanted this in the first place. Americans want to believe that we are more civilized than other people and that only through the deceit of a villainous leader would we be part of something so horrible. We are masters of passing the buck, and now we have done something so terrible that we must displace the blame, Americans are just not used to bearing the guilt.Hold on, that doesn't ring true with me. I had many a pro-war American tell me that they supported the war simply because they believed Bush and co. when they said that they had reliable information that they couldn't share. The invasion of Iraq was planned for years before 9/11 and Bush used it as an excuse to invade.The problem I had with so many people who supported the war was that they put blind faith in their leaders and ignored the available information. Full of Porn*http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com
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Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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[GDR: Yes, it was.]No it wasn't... Sorry, I could not help myself. But really, if it had been a realistic possibility we would have offered it up and it would have been entertained. It wasn't. The fact that no one did these things meant that we were moving ahead emotionally and could not entertain such reasoning.[GDR: the hatred for Saddam Hussein was manufactured and manipulated by our government and media. Working hand in hand like two lovers going off on a fishing trip.]Really? Can you prove this or are you just saying what you believe? Because remember some of our intelligence came from sources outside of our own. In fact I saw some of those pictures when they were released, there were clearly pictures of chemical moving trucks and other suspicious hardware that could have been used to make chemical weapons. Saddam said he was not making chemical or biologic weapons, were we just supposed to believe him? Our inspectors were denied access to these same sites time and time again. What else would we think?[GDR: If we have a president who wants to take his revenge out on Saddam Hussein because of something that al Qaeda did, then we have a real joke for a president.]This has never been said or even hinted at as far as I know. The reasoning for the Iraqi invasion was done on its own merits even though they turned out to be false.Think of it like this. We were really pissed off, the guys who pissed us off are no where to be found, then this guy shows up and he had pissed us off before and is doing it again. Already in a bad mood our response is that much stronger. [Niall: What are you using to judge this? The last figures I got from the IBC Project (who admit that they underestimate coalition deaths) showed that the insurgents were well behind not only the allied forces but criminals also.]The American caused civilian body count has dropped to nearly zero at this point; the insurgents are killing civilians in the numbers of dozens per week, sometimes more. At this point, American and coalition caused deaths in Iraq only add up to 37% of the total, this includes the invasion. Most of the killing these days is from crime (Iraqis killing Iraqis) or the insurgency I suspect these numbers get mixed up very often. If we do not pull out soon it is just a matter of time before the insurgency catches up. [Niall: Mate, that's always the way it is. Ask any Arab and they'd say the same to you about the US. You think that the average Arab appreciates the strength of the US anti-war movement? No they think that the vast majority of you guys wanted to invade. All the information we ever get is filtered.]I am well aware of this, but it is still very clear that the Muslim community does not have any interest in helping us in any real way. And their silence is costing lives, because if they wanted peace they have the power to end this mess at any time.[Niall: If that is true, I'd have hard time understanding how any American can still be pissed off with those country's that weren't drunk on bloodlust.]Because most Americans cannot admit this to themselves, they place all the blame on the administration so they are free of the guilt. [Niall: The invasion of Iraq was planned for years before 9/11 and Bush used it as an excuse to invade.]I have not heard this from any credible source; it is however all over the conspiracy sites, which have a habit of using false and made up evidence. If there were any real or credible evidence of such a plot it would be all over the News. Later
GOD defiles Reason

Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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Quote:Frank: But really, if it had been a realistic possibility we would have offered it up and it would have been entertained. It wasn't. The fact that no one did these things meant that we were moving ahead emotionally and could not entertain such reasoning.Starting a war for emotional reasons? I can't believe what I'm hearing this from an independent freethinker, Frank.And diplomacy and proper use of our military is always a realistic possibility.Quote:[GDR: the hatred for Saddam Hussein was manufactured and manipulated by our government and media. Working hand in hand like two lovers going off on a fishing trip.]Frank: Really? Can you prove this or are you just saying what you believe? Because remember some of our intelligence came from sources outside of our own.I wasn't talking about our Intelligence. I was talking about the vengeful feelings you mentioned.Quote:Frank: This has never been said or even hinted at as far as I know. The reasoning for the Iraqi invasion was done on its own merits even though they turned out to be false.That appears to be a stark contradiction to this statement you made:Quote:Frank: On 9/11 a sleeping dragon had been awakened and it was intent on vengeance. Everyone in this country was pissed off, from the president right down to me and my neighbor, a measured response was not a realistic possibility, emotions had been forced out and anything less that a full scale action would have been met with cries of "when will justice be done". Did Saddam's forces really pose a threat? No, but we were not sure at the time and we were hot for blood, any scapegoat would do to quench our blood lust.Quote:Frank: Think of it like this. We were really pissed off, the guys who pissed us off are no where to be found, then this guy shows up and he had pissed us off before and is doing it again. Already in a bad mood our response is that much stronger. Frank, it seems to me that you're giving reasons and excuses for invading Iraq that aren't much different from the reasons you think the Islamic Jihadists use for wanting to kill us.We can't be starting wars because of our feelings and moods. That sounds more fanatical than fighting for one's religion.
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Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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[GDR: Starting a war for emotional reasons? I can't believe what I'm hearing this from an independent freethinker, Frank.]I never said it was the right thing to do, but I do believe that the people at the top of our nation and the bulk of our populace went along with what they say they knew was flimsy intelligence simply because they were pissed off. My reasons for supporting the war were vastly different from the beginning. I really did not give a hoot why Bush decided to invade, in my opinion it should have been done when we were there the first time, and it was simply unfinished business. [GDR: And diplomacy and proper use of our military is always a realistic possibility.]Than why is it that it so often fails, especially in the Middle East, and in this case had failed for more than a decade.[GDR: That appears to be a stark contradiction to this statement you made:]Does it, Bush offered up Intel for the Iraq invasion, apparently it was quite transparent to everyone but us Americans. Why would that be? Could our anger have been clouding our judgment? Is it possible that a barely concealed prejudice had developed allowing us to see only the bad in Muslims? There is nothing outside the free thinking arena to offer up these possibilities. I see what I see, if the evidence was thin, and obviously so, than there must be another reason why many of the congress and house agreed to war despite these concerns. [GDR: Frank, it seems to me that you're giving reasons and excuses for invading Iraq that aren't much different from the reasons you think the Islamic Jihadists use for wanting to kill us.]I am not trying to justify the actions, like I said, to me it was not only over due but inevitable. As a martial artiest I know to fight out of anger is a bad thing, but I recognize that it happens and I can fall victim to it just like anyone else.[GDR: We can't be starting wars because of our feelings and moods. That sounds more fanatical than fighting for one's religion.]I agree we shouldn't, but we clearly can, that's what can happen when you piss off a whole nation of emotional humans.Later
GOD defiles Reason

Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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Ohhh, my sweet sweet NeoConWhy have you forsaken your brothers in arms...We may just have to accept that the pain and suffering and the heavy costs never had sound reasonAnd those at the top simply do not and will not ever caremy king layeth down before you
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Re: Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

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[GDR: Why have you forsaken your brothers in arms...]I have not, I still believe we are doing the right thing, maybe for the wrong reasons but I do not care so much about the reasoning. Also I think it's good to let the international community know that we do get pissed off and will kick some ass if pressed.[GDR: We may just have to accept that the pain and suffering and the heavy costs never had sound reason]If an attack on our soil and ousting an evil dictator who killed his own people by the thousands, let his son's rape and terrorize the populace, destroyed whole villages for a single persons transgression, lied and violated a legal surrender document, if these things were not sound reasoning I do not know what is. I do not need any other reasons.[GDR: And those at the top simply do not and will not ever care]I really can't speak to this, we have all seen the footage of Bush looking like he couldn't care less about some situation or another. But you may or may not be aware of this; a program was instituted not long after this war started. A general of the armed forces must attend the funeral of every soldier that dies on active duty during this conflict. This was implemented by our uncaring top politicians so that our military leaders would understand the cost of war, and their decisions when planning missions. Later
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Quote:I have not, I still believe we are doing the right thing, maybe for the wrong reasons but I do not care so much about the reasoning.See, I also think that Saddam was someone who had to be removed, but where I differ from you is in that I think that the reasoning is crucial.The US did not invade to liberate the Iraqi people. The welfare of the Iraqi people is not top of Washington's priorities and this is reflected in their strategies and their choice of tactics. In the end, any invasion of Iraq that did not place the welfare of the Iraqi citizen as its top most priority is a bad thing Full of Porn*http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com
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